The Universal Church

[steve-b]

he has established a prime minister

mcq72:

being in succession to Peter is conditional to who is most like Peter, which has not always been the bishop of Rome…otherwise He would be a respector of persons (even offices)

Jesus never promised perfect successors to Peter. Just that there would be successors to Peter, and Jesus would always be there as He promised…

that quote from Pope Clement,

mcq72:

Clement mentions nothing of papal office. He mentions apostolic “offices” and their appointments, successors, that “they” ( apostles) appointed in all the churches they founded.

since this is an authority issue, let’s see how you answer the following entries.

WHY

did Corinth in Greece, go to Bp Clement in Rome Italy, in the 1st place, to settle sedition among their bishops?

mcq72:

He says to follow these appointments as they are holy and righteous also ( conditional then?). The Corinthians deposed not unholy or unrighteous presbyters but they were apostolic like (holy, righteous), and as such was wrong thing to do.

in extension, adding to the points I’m addressing

Historically speaking,

St John is still alive, and hasn’t written the book of Revelation yet. He’s living over on Patmos, much closer to Corinth than Rome was.

So again, Why didn’t Corinth go

1st to John, the last living apostle?

or

Athens , 50 mi from Corinth. Mentioned in Acts. They have valid bishops

or

Thessolonika, also in Greece, they have valid bishops

Why go to

Clement in Rome?

mcq72:

As to other article, it was not clear to apostles that Peter would be greatest after he was given keys, for they would argue these things again , later on in gospel account (last supper).

You didn’t understand the scripture links I’ve given you?

 

[mcq72]

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics , they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome] , in which sacerdotal unity has its source " ( Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [ A.D. 252 ]).

Again , developing, as hear 150 years later.

Clement did not use such language.

 

[mcq72]

Cyprian appears to have changed his tune when he Pope Stephen disagreed with him about baptism by heretics.

when i see the name Cyprian i cant help recall this, although Catholics who admit this say he flip flopped depending on situation…yet papal assertion, like stephen did, is often " situational. Like Aquinas said i think, that argument from authority can be the weakest . Of course the exception is authority that from divine revelation. That is perhaps why stephen was first to cite peter as rock and key holder to legitimize his authority on the baptism conflict. But that is then the question, is that divine revelation, divine understanding, of said text. Cyprian certainly questioned such understanding, and way before Luther.

 

[mcq72]

WHY

did Corinth in Greece, go to Bp Clement in Rome Italy, in the 1st place, to settle sedition among their bishops?

Who sent letter to Clement? Were they the guilty party? Did they go to furthest “see” because they would be the most ignorant of situation, or harder to investigate?

There is no evidence they did so because they thought the vicar of Christ, in Clement, was there.

Rome was a large church, more than athens and others and certainly had authority to speak righteousness to Corinth situation. That was also the last place Paul and Peter ministered from, and Corinth was very close to Paul.

We dont know if John was alive.

 

[ziapueblo]

Paragraph 19 of the Chieti document is one which to ponder upon:

Over the centuries, a number of appeals were made to the bishop of Rome, also from the East, in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. An attempt was made at the Synod of Sardica (343) to establish rules for such a procedure.(14) Sardica was received at the Council in Trullo (692).(15) The canons of Sardica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the bishop of Rome, and that the latter, if he deemed it appropriate, might order a retrial, to be conducted by the bishops in the province neighbouring the bishop’s own. Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to the see of Constantinople,(16) and to other sees. Such appeals to major sees were always treated in a synodical way. Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church, but the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.

The early Church clearly understood that the Bishop of Rome had a special place among the other Patriarchs, however, “disciplinary matters were also made to the see of Constantinople . . .” as well as to the others, and, “Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church . . .”

I’ve posted this many times, the Chieti document is the springboard to future dialogue between Rome and the East, as stated in the document itself.

ZP

 

[ArchStanton]

Cyprian appears to have changed his tune when he Pope Stephen disagreed with him about baptism by heretics.

So are you saying your post negates the chair of Peter due to baptism?

 

[ArchStanton]

developing

yes, Matthew 13:31-32

 

[mcq72]

yes( developing), Matthew 13:31-32

Well Peter was more than a seed, as in fully grown, a tree for “birds” to lodge in, as were some other bishops of Rome.

Otherwise I would not idealize with Proverbial words from Jesus a quest for jurisdictional power, in my opinion.

 

[ArchStanton]

The ‘Church’ not Pierre

 

[mcq72]

The ‘Church’ not Pierre

Well is the church growing the same as development? Even doctrinal development of papal justification and understanding?

And it depends on focus, like does the mystical body of Christ " develop"?..certainly heirarchal structure can develop beyond what is explicit in scripture, and up for grabs on discerning what is divine.

 

[ArchStanton]

binding/loosing over ‘time’
guided by the HS over ‘time’… hence, developing over ‘time’

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

WHY

did Corinth in Greece, go to Bp Clement in Rome Italy, in the 1st place, to settle sedition among their bishops?

Who sent letter to Clement? Were they the guilty party? Did they go to furthest “see” because they would be the most ignorant of situation, or harder to investigate?

Is that a guess?

mcq72:

There is no evidence they did so because they thought the vicar of Christ, in Clement, was there.

This is an authority issue.

Corinth was obviously not able to fix the sedition going on with their own bishops. They needed help from someone who could actually solve the problem.

So again,

Why did they go to Clement in Rome?

mcq72:

Rome was a large church,

Rome was trying to eradicate the Church. And besides, What does the size of the Church of Rome have to do with answering Corinth’s problems with their bishops, in Greece, in an authoritative manner?

mcq72:

more than athens

Both Athens and Thessolonika were Greek. Who better to address the issues in Corinth that THEY had to address with THEIR bishops than fellow Greeks?.

Why did Corinth not only bypass THAT Greek option , BUT what about John over on Patmos, who is much closer to Corinth than Clement over in Rome? What about THAT?

Why did Corinth go to Clement in Rome?​

mcq72:

and others certainly had authority to speak righteousness to Corinth situation.
That was also the last place Paul and Peter ministered from, and Corinth was very close to Paul.

Peter was bishop of the Church of Rome. THAT was Peter’s last see. No other Church can claim that. And it is already understood that the bishop of the Church of Rome is the successor to Peter. THAT is why Corinth went to the bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome was already understood to speak authoritatively for the Church.

mcq72:

We dont know if John was alive.

John was supposed to have died ~ 90 - 100 a.d. Most put it closer to a.d. 100.

Clement died ~97 a.d.

 

[mcq72]

binding/loosing over ‘time’
guided by the HS over ‘time’… hence, developing over ‘time’

Exactly…and up for grabs as to what is His divine will beyond what is apostolic.

Every “magisterium”/ church governance pray for " guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ArchStanton]

Exactly…and up for grabs as to what is His divine will beyond what is apostolic.

Every “magisterium”/ church governance pray for " guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I am not talking about ‘every magisterium’… the ONLY magisterium from the beginning has the guidance of the HS [with no expiration date]

 

[mcq72]

Is that a guess?

Twas a question. Were the heretical bishop(s) the ones who asked Rome to intervene ?

Why did they go to Clement in Rome?

We are not told.

My musings and yours are just that. I would have gone to Rome myself in their situation.

 

[mcq72]

I am not talking about ‘every magisterium’… the ONLY magisterium from the beginning has the guidance of the HS [with no expiration date]

Yes. Once right always rights. Unconditional protection from error. These Catholic propositions tell me of an error already, in my and others opinion.

If argument from authority could be weak, much more sole authority ?

 

[ArchStanton]

These Catholic propositions tell me of an error already, in my and others opinion.

Remember that this is basically a ‘negative’ protection. The HS will not allow error. As to your ‘opinion’, remember this verse …

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart ,

on your own intelligence do not rely ;

In all your ways be mindful of him,

and he will make straight your paths .

 

[steve-b]

Is that a guess?

mcq72:

Twas a question. Were the heretical bishop(s) the ones who asked Rome to intervene ?

Why would heretics be considering THAT?

Why did they go to Clement in Rome?

mcq72:

We are not told.

Of course we’re told. Corinth’s bishops were in sedition. They (the Church at Corinth) obviously couldn’t fix it, so they sought help from the bishop of Rome

mcq72:

My musings and yours are just that. I would have gone to Rome myself in their situation.

I’ll just say,

It’s not musings on my part. Corinth went to Rome because Corinth couldn’t solve their own problem, nor could any of the other Churches,… or they (Corinth) would have gone that direction… right?

But

Corinth didn’t do that. It’s already known throughout the Church, that the Church of Rome, has universal authority.

 

[mcq72]

The HS will not allow error.

You know this is extra biblical. Oh He guides perfectly, but that is only half the story, half the equation, half the participants, half the nature of the church.

 

[mcq72]

As to your ‘opinion’, remember this verse …

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart ,

on your own intelligence do not rely ;

In all your ways be mindful of him,

and he will make straight your paths

Amen, best word i have heard this morning ( i am bad on early morning devotions and scripture reading).