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steve-b
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Everybody has a story.
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Michael16
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Hahaha @steve-b
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mcq72
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Lolā¦you are goading me.
In German it is a little more understanding of the insertion of āaloneā apparently, so i would deduce your properly won points a bit, plus a little more reduction in points to the justifiable reaction to the over the top church culture/ practice of works and indugences of his time, and finally one more slight reduction in points for the CC and others doing same thing (tweaking) in a few places in their translations, I mean he who translates tends to tweak things his way, and the " alone" insertion certainly changes none of my understandingā¦never the less a partial point awarded to your critique in Luther doing so.
As to this, zero points awarded for thus critique.
He didnt remove them, and dont recall if he included them in special section, but for sure, like Jerome, included preface to each book that suggested their deutero status and why.
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Michael16
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@mcq72,
Removing them from their order in the OT and placing them in an apocrypha section, saying they werenāt inspired Scripture and then saying they were good and useful to read; is still altering Scripture.
The Scripture alteration still eliminates any credibility that Luther has an exegete or translator as it shows a willingness to add or remove from Scripture. Even though he claimed he was being faithful to that same Scripture he altered to fit his interpretation.
Then, you have to consider what he wanted to do to the New Testament that his followers wouldnāt allow him to do.
Including removing Saint James. The ā Straw Epistle ā He rages so much about.
So, plenty of points to me in critique.
Removing them from their order in the OT and placing them in an apocrypha section, saying they werenāt inspired Scripture and then saying they were good and useful to read; is still altering Scripture.
The Scripture alteration still eliminates any credibility that Luther has an exegete or translator as it shows a willingness to add or remove from Scripture. Even though he claimed he was being faithful to that same Scripture he altered to fit his interpretation.
Then, you have to consider what he wanted to do to the New Testament that his followers wouldnāt allow him to do.
Including removing Saint James. The ā Straw Epistle ā He rages so much about.
So, plenty of points to me in critique.
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mcq72
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Havent looked, but correct, we dont make a sacrifice as you do (except of praise and thanksgiving, like you). We do not make transubstantiation happen, our change is in said new representations, never the less our priest (pastor) is still thrilled to preside in remembrance ceremony.
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Michael16
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You still lack the fullness of the Faith, @mcq72.
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mcq72
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At least, but doctrinal issues are also the least in my spiritual challenge.
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Michael16
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Iām not sure I understand what you mean by that, @mcq72.
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Lenten_ashes
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It was okay to debate matters unless the Church had spoken infallibly on the issue. I can debate Limbo topic if i choose to, as an example.
The 7 semi-disputed books were read in Mass for a thousand years before anyone ever heard of Luther. Even the most notable disputer - Jerome, changed his tune on them, eventually.
And they are accepted by both lungs of the Church, both east and west. A overwhelming majority of Christendom.
The 7 semi-disputed books were read in Mass for a thousand years before anyone ever heard of Luther. Even the most notable disputer - Jerome, changed his tune on them, eventually.
And they are accepted by both lungs of the Church, both east and west. A overwhelming majority of Christendom.
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mcq72
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Perhaps , but he left it as a matter of faith also , if I recallā¦pretty cool, like most of church history, and Jewish history did on this matter.
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Michael16
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Nah. @mcq72,
Despite the mythology, Luther was a HIGHLY intolerant man toward othersā opinions.
Despite the mythology, Luther was a HIGHLY intolerant man toward othersā opinions.
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mcq72
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I was speaking of the term " faith" , the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"ā¦and not so much a body of doctrine/ dogma etcā¦
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Michael16
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Thatās a cop out, imo @mcq72.
One has to know what he has faith in.
Otherwise, faith becomes another word for opinion.
One has to know what he has faith in.
Otherwise, faith becomes another word for opinion.
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mcq72
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Yes, stubborn as a mule (well, the other term for it). I am glad he did not tolerate the abuses and doctrine of his time. Somehow that mule was used to set some people free to a spiritual awakening that could not be done otherwise. For others, certainly motivating the counter reformation didnt hurt either.
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Michael16
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Sigh @mcq72.
He didnāt set people free. He removed authority to interpret Scripture from the Magisterium and placed it in the individual and then wrote to people who were reading Scripture for themselves to imagine him at their side helping them interpret.
Double speaking hypocrisy.
He didnāt awaken anyone spiritually. He lit off a revolution that ruined the world.
Erasmus of Rotterdam had written that when saw people going to Lutherās gospel; he didnāt see anyone beating their breasts over their sins in repentance. What he saw was people getting worse.
After his firestorm, Luther himself expressed dismay that anyone and everyone, no matter his qualifications, education, training or station; could and would have a theological opinion. No unity. Even though he screamed invective at anyone who believed differently than he.
He didnāt set people free. He removed authority to interpret Scripture from the Magisterium and placed it in the individual and then wrote to people who were reading Scripture for themselves to imagine him at their side helping them interpret.
Double speaking hypocrisy.
He didnāt awaken anyone spiritually. He lit off a revolution that ruined the world.
Erasmus of Rotterdam had written that when saw people going to Lutherās gospel; he didnāt see anyone beating their breasts over their sins in repentance. What he saw was people getting worse.
After his firestorm, Luther himself expressed dismay that anyone and everyone, no matter his qualifications, education, training or station; could and would have a theological opinion. No unity. Even though he screamed invective at anyone who believed differently than he.
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mcq72
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Oh I do. I only said it is full enough to be the least of my problems , and perhaps not full as in perfect yet
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Again, faith is in a Person, and that is still in the attaining, not full yet, not perfect yetā¦i think you said " lacking" and I suppose that fits, relative to what can be and will be.
Do you think i can post as I do and not know what I have faith in?
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Michael16
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@mcq72,
Faith in a Person.
Yet a faith that accepts so many things that people taught by the men who met the Son of God: Walked with Him, were taught by Him; had first hand knowledge of the Christ; were not taught by the Apostles.
Your faith is formed by men who reinterpreted the Word of God on their own.
Faith in a Person.
Yet a faith that accepts so many things that people taught by the men who met the Son of God: Walked with Him, were taught by Him; had first hand knowledge of the Christ; were not taught by the Apostles.
Your faith is formed by men who reinterpreted the Word of God on their own.
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steve-b
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Considering the NT reference to the Mass / Euchariststeve-b:
Havent looked, but correct, we dont make a sacrifice as you do (except of praise and thanksgiving, like you). We do not make transubstantiation happen, our change is in said new representations, never the less our priest (pastor) is still thrilled to preside in remembrance ceremony.
Heb 10
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, āVengeance is mine, I will repay.ā And again, āThe Lord will judge his people.ā 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Unpacking that
deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences āthe Dayā = the LORDāS DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected
WHY? What are they doing when they meet?
The āsacrifice for sinā, & āblood of the covenantā = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28 & Mark 14:24 & Lk 22
i.e. They are celebrating the Mass, the Eucharist each timne they meet
THATās why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth, ā¦ there no longer remains, a sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant for THEM ā¦
THEY Spurn the Son of God ā¦ THEY outrage the spirit of grace ā¦
AND
a fearful prospect of judgement awaits THEMā¦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
SO Re: sin
Does that sound like itās only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?
Obviously itās a command, and itās a mortal sin to deliberately miss mass, on Sunday (unless sick or some other good reason) and those previous passages, describes why
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Michael16
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@mcq72,
I remember once that you were shaken and very sad. Shaken to your core in a discussion with me.
I remember once that you were shaken and very sad. Shaken to your core in a discussion with me.
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mcq72
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Fair enough , for that us the essence of error that we each see across the river. That is the challenge, between walking in truth and Spirit or making Him in our image.
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