The Universal Church

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Michael16 said:
I hold that Jesus spoke the Words of Institution literally and you’ve been trying to state otherwise. Yet, I haven’t budged an inch on it and you’re still trying every which way you can think of to get me to concede.
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Again, as i said hours ago, it would be impossible to budge you, and am not trying, but maybe you are sensing someone else as I am just also standing my graced ground.
 
@mcq72,

We’ve been arguing for hours; hours in which you tried to convince me that I’m wrong and you’ve failed to do so and you’ve been conceding ground all day.

You’re saying it’s impossible to budge me, though you’re not trying; and somehow I’m sensing someone else as you are standing on your graced ground?

You’re not making any sense.

Anyway, I’m heading to bed.
 
@mcq72,

Um, what?

Look, I’ve been standing on the truth that has been taught all the way back to the Apostles themselves who heard it from Christ Himself.

You’re defending innovations conceived 500 years ago.
 
Last word, @mcq72:

My basic point is: I’ve held onto my exegesis against your attempts to counter it. Now you’re just making assertions of truth without any basis that you successfully demonstrated it.

Sigh.

Good night, mcq.
 
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mcq72 said:
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Michael16:
After they left, Jesus never corrected the remaining disciples, saying: “ Now that those guys are gone, I was really just talking metaphorically. “
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Goes both ways…nor did Jesus strive to keep them from leaving by saying " Wait, I really mean eating me in an unbloody manner"
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Jesus knew in advance those (called disciples) who saw His miracles, would reject what He would teach them, and leave Him, before He even gave them the bread of life discourse. Because as He said, they had no faith.

point being

Jesus shows in this episode, He knows the outcome of everything, in advance, bad or good. Just as Jesus turns and asks Peter a question He already knows the answer that Peter will give back to Him. and Jesus knew that before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew / knows THEN what He knows for all time, those who will accept vs those who will leave / reject, etc what He wants. He knows that from the first Adam to the last Adam.

AND

He demonstrates, He still gives them as He does everyone, the information they need . Accepting it is a choice one freely makes. Ergo He shows, He still gives EVERYONE a chance on this side of eternity.

AND

Because in this episode, He didn’t go after them, HE LET THEM GO, I personally find that to be, ONE of the scariest passages in scripture.
 
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steve-b said:
Jesus knew in advance those (called disciples) who saw His miracles, would reject what He would teach them, and leave Him, before He even gave them the bread of life discourse . Because as He said, they had no faith .
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Agree, and have pointed this out myself many times because people seem to equate us non literal eaters with these disciples that left, as if they were believers also but just couldn’t do this literal eating. My point is they were disciples for the wrong reason, and did not believe from the beginning, which is totally unlike non literal eaters today. Jesus did not trust them way back in John 2, when they started “following”. The superfluous eating, actual gnawing at the third mention, was precisely put forth to make them go away and cease from following under wrong pretenses. That is why He did not explain your unbloody eating or our spiritual or figurative eating to those departing. Similar to His explanation of why He spoke in parables to the people.

He desires that all freely be disciples but under right pretense , in truth and spirit…with a broken and changed heart…it would be cruel or detrimental to allow such following otherwise…there was hopefully another day to return and follow properly.
steve-b said:
Because in this episode, He didn’t go after them, HE LET THEM GO , I personally find that to be, ONE of the scariest passages in scripture
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I suppose no scarier than those who heard and did not follow at all, even if for a day.

I find comfort that He did not let them remain in such false hopes. A bit like Paul’s admonition to let those refusing admonition to live holy depart, in hopes that more darkness(even Satan) may wake them up to the light they were close to or had.

Let our hope be real.
 
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That you/we get tossed in with those that left is a huge misunderstanding that complicates the rest of the story. Good job.
 
@Wannano and @mcq72,

With all due respect to our fellow Christians, what’s the misunderstanding?

We accept that your guys’ Baptisms, as long as they’re done with the Trinitarian formula; are valid and thus y’all are Christians. Though separated by imperfect communion and without any Apostolic Succession, valid priesthood and thus a valid Eucharist.

You guys ARE Christian and not like the disciples that left.

It’s more like you guys have faith in Jesus; just not the fullness with all seven Sacraments.
 
Kind of you to say so @Michael16!

I think our friend @steve-b would disagree though. Wait for it…🙂
 
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Well, thank you @TULIPed.

I’m just going in line with what I understand of Lumen Gentium.
 
“mcq72 said:
steve-b said:
Jesus knew in advance those (called disciples) who saw His miracles, would reject what He would teach them, and leave Him, before He even gave them the bread of life discourse . Because as He said, they had no faith .
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mcq72:
they did not believe from the beginning, which totally unlike non literal eaters today.
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Those you mention, who won’t agree, qualify as non believers too
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mcq72:
The superfluous eating, actual gnawing at the third mention, was precisely put forth to make them go away and cease from following under wrong pretenses. That is why He did not explain your unbloody eating or our spiritual or figurative eating to those departing. Similar to His explanation of why He spoke in parables to the people.
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Jesus didn’t further explain Himself because He knew it would do no good with THEM. One can’t believe if they have no faith. EVEN when it is GOD doing the teaching…

Those who left, told God to His face, they don’t accept what He is teaching them. They even expand the point by saying who could even listen to it

Jesus gave His Church the perfect example to follow here, with those who won’t agree…
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mcq72:
He desires that all freely be disciples but under right pretense , in truth and spirit…
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Jesus already knows EVERYTHING with every person from beginning to end. EVERYTHING. There are no surprises.

AND

While we have opportunities, to help others on this side of eternity, Not knowing if it helps or not

We do

KNOW

in advance, because we are told by the ONE who knows EVERYTHING,

THAT

While God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth HERE

In Reality

Few are saved.
HERE
&
HERE

Because

as Jesus said HERE

Meaning all the rest aren’t saved. And I think THAT is the scariest teaching in scripture.
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mcq72:
I find comfort that He did not let them remain in such false hopes. A bit like Paul’s admonition to let those refusing admonition to live holy depart, in hopes that more darkness(even Satan) may wake them up to the light they were close to or had.
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When Paul was instructing Bishop Titus, about dealing with those in heresy, he put some qualifications

Titus 3:10-11 “As for a man who is factious αἱρετικὸν , after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted ἐξέστραπται and sinful; he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”
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TULIPed said:
Kind of you to say so @Michael16!

I think our friend @steve-b would disagree though. Wait for it…🙂
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I don’t disagree. Protestants who are validly baptized are Christian.

However

THAT as you know, is only a beginning.
 
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Michael16 said:
@Wannano and @mcq72,

With all due respect to our fellow Christians, what’s the misunderstanding?

We accept that your guys’ Baptisms, as long as they’re done with the Trinitarian formula; are valid and thus y’all are Christians. Though separated by imperfect communion and without any Apostolic Succession, valid priesthood and thus a valid Eucharist.

You guys ARE Christian and not like the disciples that left.

It’s more like you guys have faith in Jesus; just not the fullness with all seven Sacraments.
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Just thinking out loud,

Those who left, were called “disciples”. Meaning they WERE followers of Christ .

Isn’t “follower of Christ” a loose understanding by many, for the definition of “Christian”?

SO

in the episode we’re referring to, “disciples” of Christ left Him over a particular teaching of His.

🤔 Gee,

where have I heard THAT before?
 
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