The Universal Church

[steve-b]

Sorry, @steve-b.

I don’t have a specific quote handy. I know that one of the Orthodox guys here said that Saint Augustine, late in his writings; wasn’t too strong on papal authority and Saint Cyprian had a view of first among equals.

And you didn’t ask for proof?

Michael16:

I suggest you ask @ziapueblo, @Isaac14, @George720 and others for specifics. I believe they’d know.

I would have asked for proof immediately.

May I suggest, that before you advance those points you heard presented as facts, that you first validate that they really are facts.

 

[Michael16]

Yeah, @steve-b. I should have. My bad.

 

[ziapueblo]

In other threads, I quoted these Fathers about the “keys”. Not sure if I mentioned anything else than that.

For example, St John Chrysostom, from the preface, of his first homily in the Gospel of John:

“For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom with much confidence, this man comes forward to us now; not as an actor of a play, not hiding his head with a mask, (for he has another sort of words to speak,) nor mounting a platform, nor striking the stage with his foot, nor dressed out with apparel of gold, but he enters wearing a robe of inconceivable beauty.”

Who is the “son of thunder” that “holds the keys of heaven” he refers to? St John the Evangelist of course.

ZP

 

[mcq72]

Heretics get their ideas and don’t listen to authority correcting them

Again, both sides did not " submit one to another"

 

[steve-b]

In other threads, I quoted these Fathers about the “keys”. Not sure if I mentioned anything else than that.

For example, St John Chrysostom, from the preface, of his first homily in the Gospel of John:

“For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom with much confidence, this man comes forward to us now; not as an actor of a play, not hiding his head with a mask, (for he has another sort of words to speak,) nor mounting a platform, nor striking the stage with his foot, nor dressed out with apparel of gold, but he enters wearing a robe of inconceivable beauty.”

Who is the “son of thunder” that “holds the keys of heaven” he refers to? St John the Evangelist of course.

ZP

Homily 88

While sharing the view Christ’s words in John 21 are restorative, John Chrysostom (347–407) understands that by them the Lord also confers “chief authority among the brethren” upon Peter:

“He was the chosen one of the apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to inquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus puts into his hands the chief authority among the brethren; and he brings forward not the denial, nor reproaches him with what had taken place, but says, “If you love me, preside over your brethren, and show now the warm love that you have always manifested and in which you rejoiced; and the life that you said you would lay down for me now give for my sheep” ( Commentary on St. John’s Gospel , homily 88). Later in the same homily, John Chrysostom observes that Jesus “appointed” Peter teacher, not of the chair, but of the world."

When Chrysostom was deposed, by his fellow bishops, from Constantinople, who did he seek help from? The pope Innocent I

 

[ziapueblo]

I’ve never said that the Bishop of Rome did not have a special place among the Bishops, only the issue of supreme and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Yet, as the great St attests, St Peter was not the only one to receive the keys.

ZP

 

[Michael16]

There’s a problem, @ziapueblo.

In the argument over the keys and the binding and loosing; we haven’t resolved this: “ Upon this rock I shall build My Church… “ and in Saint John 21: “ Feed My lambs… Tend My sheep… Feed My sheep. “

Saint Peter is the foundation upon which the Church is built and he feeds and tends the Lord’s sheep.

A shepherd cannot tend sheep without keeping them together and leading them.

Thus, Saint Peter is the Head of the Church with authority to govern the Church.

 

[Michael16]

I’m not sure what you meant in your reply, @mcq72. Sorry.

 

[Wannano]

As for the nature of Protestantism as a heresy of the Latin Church; I fully agree.

However, for the sake of mutually reasonable and calm discussion with them; I think we must refrain from stating as such as part of being polite.

You say this and then in the following posts call us heretics.

Be careful to not bite your tongue off when talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

 

[Michael16]

@Wannano,

I try to abide by the principle of speaking the truth with love while living a faithful witness of Christ.

For me, the problem is in how do I be charitable and tactful with my separated brethren while not compromising on the truth.

It’s hard to do, Wannano and I apologize for my failure to do so in this instance.

I also ask you to bear in mind what I said in one of my posts:

I try to approach Protestants on the basis of showing them respect as fellow Christians that have faith in Jesus and teach faith alive with works.

 

[mcq72]

Saint Peter is the foundation upon which the Church is built and he feeds and tends the Lord’s sheep.

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

Rev. 21:14

A shepherd cannot tend sheep without keeping them together and leading them.

Thus, Saint Peter is the Head of the Church with authority to govern the Church.

Every apostle and every bishop is a “shepherd”, thus St.Peter is first amongst equals.

 

[Michael16]

@mcq72,

I answer with two things and some exegesis.

The Rev quote was interesting; I’ll admit. But, you still have to harmonize that with Upon this rock and Saint John 21: “ Feed My lambs… Tend My sheep… Feed My sheep… “

Jesus said this only to Saint Peter. Thus: He can’t be merely first among equals. He’s the head of the college of bishops.

1: Fr Nicholas Affanassieff ( An Eastern Orthodox priest) had stated, in the Ante Nicene period; that the Church of Rome was the final arbiter of contentious issues among the other bishops. If Rome didn’t accept a doctrine, the rest of the Church wouldn’t as Rome’s opinion was definitive.

In fact, he went on to say that there were many cases that such appeals and arbitrations had occurred.

@ziapueblo

2: Next in Saint Cyprian of Carthage ( d. 258 )

He had stated that “ The Bishop of Rome is the heir of Saint Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly “ and insisted that “ The Church of Rome is the root and matrix of the Catholic Church. “

 

[Wannano]

Good morning, Michael.

Your struggle is one I identify with. I have found that when I am convinced that I have determined truth and then insist that others see my point of view as the truth by simply stating my viewpoint, I usually end up eating crow to some degree, and in the meantime decimate myself in the eyes of the other.

This holds true for churches as well as individuals in my opinion.

Have a Blessed Christmas.

 

[ziapueblo]

2: Next in Saint Cyprian of Carthage ( d. 258 )

He had stated that “ The Bishop of Rome is the heir of Saint Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly “ and insisted that “ The Church of Rome is the root and matrix of the Catholic Church.“

Christ is born! Glorify Him!

Merry Christmas to you!

The unfortunate thing is that we (Catholic and Orthodox alike) pick and choose quotes from the Fathers to fit what we want them to mean. St Cyprian of Carthage also writes:

“Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honor and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity.” ( On the Unity of the Church)

We need to look at context of the letter, not just one verse, similar to how one should read the Scriptures. Now, I am not saying that I am perfect at this either.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

@steve-b,

I respect that you’re trying to save yourself and others.

With my approach, I’m laying seeds. I’ve found in my previous apologetics approach with my Lutheran family, that I would preach and pretty much say everything they believe is wrong. That made them not so much anti Catholic; but anti me.

So, I’ve laid off the preaching and criticism and took an approach of meeting them where they’re at and helping them understand where they misunderstand as things arise naturally.

With that approach, one of my sons is discerning the Faith and my other son, who’s Lutheran and has tried telling me I should be Lutheran; has said to me this morning: “ Dad, if I become Catholic; can I go back to being Lutheran? “

So, basically I’m not attacking their belief system. I’m correcting misunderstandings and trying to help them in their sanctification and avoid sin.

Make sense?

If one is presenting the true faith correctly, then contrary belief systems to the true faith is going to be exposed. Avoiding that is NOT dealing with reality

 

[steve-b]

I’ve never said that the Bishop of Rome did not have a special place among the Bishops, only the issue of supreme and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church.

ZP

That’s sidestepping Peter’s commission, he is to preside over the Church.

 

[Michael16]

@steve-b,

How is my approach avoiding confronting belief systems contrary to the true Faith?

I’m just not going on the offensive and aggressively shoving doctrine down their throats and telling them to fall in line with me or burn.

I’ve talked with Father about this and he said to take the approach of no preaching, no arguing, pray for them and live a faithful Catholic life.

Looking over Redintegratio, I see that this approach lines up with the ecumenical principles laid out for us in V2.

 

[mcq72]

end up eating crow to some degree

lol…here is a scriptural paraphrase:

“let every man eat crow, but God never does”…Romans 3;4

Merry Christmas

 

[Michael16]

You raise a good point, ZP.

But, how do we harmonize the passage I quoted with yours in the context of the whole letter?

What about Fr Annassieff?

Here’s my point:

From the research I’ve done so far, the Pope’s authority wasn’t clear cut at the beginning. However, he did possess the place of honor and precedence. In this understanding, Rome’s opinion had weight due to this.

In my reading, the Eastern bishops were often fractious among themselves and appeals were made to Rome instead. If my sources, including Fr Annassieff; are correct; Rome’s opinion carried considerable weight. Even without a clearly defined vertical hierarchy.

Considering the early sources I’ve read, by the 2nd century, Rome’s weight began to be felt in the Church and Popes spoke authoritatively by the 4th century. Especially in the case of the Church of Corinth going to Rome instead of Constantinople.

Remember: Even without a clearly defined supremacy, Rome ranked highest among all the bishops.

That alone I believe, establishes a valid case for papal authority.