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lanman87
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I Did open the link and read all of it. Even the part under
II. to do (Latinago), i. e. to follow some method in expressing by deeds the feelings and thoughts of the mind;
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II. to do (Latinago), i. e. to follow some method in expressing by deeds the feelings and thoughts of the mind;
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Michael16
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@lanman87,
Technically, you’re right. Presbuteros does mean elder. But: If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck; it’s a duck.
I invite you to check out @steve-b’s posted link. It was written by a Protestant who became Catholic.
The basic point is: Christian Churches differentiated between our priests by calling them elders. But, when you look at what these men are doing: Administering Sacraments like the Eucharist, a Sacrifice; Saint James 5:14-15; we have Saint James telling people to go to the presbyters for praying for healing and forgiveness of sins. That’s participating in Christ’s priesthood!
We have the Apostles appointing bishops and priests to carry on his ministry.
Your translation has the correct Greek word. But as always: Protestants look at the exact wording at not what’s going on in the text.
Technically, you’re right. Presbuteros does mean elder. But: If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck; it’s a duck.
I invite you to check out @steve-b’s posted link. It was written by a Protestant who became Catholic.
The basic point is: Christian Churches differentiated between our priests by calling them elders. But, when you look at what these men are doing: Administering Sacraments like the Eucharist, a Sacrifice; Saint James 5:14-15; we have Saint James telling people to go to the presbyters for praying for healing and forgiveness of sins. That’s participating in Christ’s priesthood!
We have the Apostles appointing bishops and priests to carry on his ministry.
Your translation has the correct Greek word. But as always: Protestants look at the exact wording at not what’s going on in the text.
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steve-b
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Consider the followingMichael16:
I’m simply giving why the reason Protestant versions use the word Elder and why it is a better/more correct translation.
Where does it say that? Your reading Catholic doctrine to assume something that isn’t stated.
Plus: The word presbuteros specifically means: Those who go before.
Not according to Strongs
GK: G4565
presbuteros: elder
Original Word: πρεσβύτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: presbuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo’-ter-os)
Definition: elder
Usage: elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.
Can you please give me a source for your translation?
Priests mentioned in the NT HERE
AND
Bishops, priests, deacons HERE
I would just add
The Catholic Church was THERE before a single word of the NT was written.
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Vico
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RSVCE note on 1 Titus 5Gotta call in the big guns. Calling all the Greeks!!
@Margaret_Ann, @Isaac14, @Vico, @ziapueblo, @George720 and @dochawk:
This guy’s claiming this:
The Greek Word Presbuteros means Elder and Hierus means priest. The Douay-Rheims Bible used the word priest instead of elder to fit Catholic doctrine. The Protestant version is the correct translation.
So he says
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mcq72
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Well, 18 translations do alsoSo he says
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George720
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Well, Presbytera means Priest’s Wife in the Greek Church… And in the Arabic Church Abouna means Priest… When the Bible was being written, the Priests were the Elders of the Church, and the terms 'Ieros and Presbyteros were both used to mean Priest… For at this early stage of the Faith, the Church had not yet matured to the point where such functions were clearly laid out…
Exactly so… And to this day, our Bishop regards himself as but a [granted, perhaps overburdened, mind you] Deacon - A Servant… When Ananias baptized Saul, he was described as a Servant… But he functioned as a Priest/Presbyter…
It is important to recognize that Protestants tend to be very reverential to the differentiation of the terms used in the Bible differently, and different words the same, for they are piously bound to the Bible as their sole source of Doctrines, where each person is responsible for their own understanding… So for their Salvation, for the Good of their souls, it is important not so much to refute them but to gently stretch their understanding to greater scope of encompassment… For many Protestants, The Biblical words and the Doctrines derived therefrom, are understood to be the basis of man’s Salvation… And our job, for them, is to find a way to engage them in their own terms, but from a different perspective…
No small matter…
I am not normally all that successful…
fwiw…
geo
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lanman87
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But that Catholic church didn’t preach or believe much of what the modern Catholic church teaches and therefore was not the same church.
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Michael16
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@mcq72,
Don’t mean you guys understand the text.
Don’t mean you guys understand the text.
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George720
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Yes we were…
Right THERE in Jerusalem!
No question…
The Faith of Christ was practiced prior to the writing of the Bible…
THEN we wrote the Bible!
geo
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Michael16
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@lanman87,
Ummm, have you ACTUALLY read Church history at all?
We’ve stayed pretty consistent for 2,000 years. Yet, you guys can’t for 500.
Ummm, have you ACTUALLY read Church history at all?
We’ve stayed pretty consistent for 2,000 years. Yet, you guys can’t for 500.
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lanman87
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Yes, but it is not the same faith (in many ways) that is taught by the Catholic church today.
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steve-b
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When Jesus said “DO THIS” ποιεῖτε = (a) make, manufacture, construct, (b) do, act, cause, to appoint or ordain one , to change one thing into another,"steve-b:
I Did open the link and read all of it. Even the part under
II. to do (Latinago), i. e. to follow some method in expressing by deeds the feelings and thoughts of the mind;
what was He doing? He was changing mere bread and wine into His body & blood the Eucharist. Changing one thing into another. AND who was He directing to “DO” ποιεῖτε the same? The apostles. Meaning they had to have the power and authority to DO exactly what Jesus did. Meaning Jesus ordained them HERE.
The link covered that.
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lanman87
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I’ve read at least 5 books on Church history by both Catholics and Non-Catholics. It is pretty clear that the church, over time, invented non-Apostolic doctrines (things not taught by the Apostles) and slowly moved farther and farther away from the Gospel message of Christ to the point where the Gospel message is, for many, secondary to the other trappings of Catholicism.
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lanman87
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No, he was changing the passover meal from one of remembrance and celebration of what God did in the Exodus to a way of remembering and celebrating what He was about to do on the cross on our behalf.
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Michael16
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Tell ya what, @lanman87:
Name one example of how we “ strayed “.
I’ll clear it up for ya.
Name one example of how we “ strayed “.
I’ll clear it up for ya.
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Michael16
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@lanman87,
And your proof of that?
THIS IS MY BODY…THIS IS MY BLOOD.
Not yelling. Just emphasis.
And your proof of that?
THIS IS MY BODY…THIS IS MY BLOOD.
Not yelling. Just emphasis.
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steve-b
Guest
Going back to the 1st centurysteve-b:
But that Catholic church didn’t preach or believe much of what the modern Catholic church teaches and therefore was not the same church.
BP Ignatius, knew the apostles, was a contemporary. of them, and was ordained ~68 a.d. by apostles. He was a direct disciple of John the apostle. Meaning, that before John died ~ 100 a.d., they knew each other for some 30+ years. In Ignatius letters, he would write what the apostles taught, and in particular what John taught him.
Here’s what Ignatius wrote about the Eucharist. He wrote to the Church in 6 locations.
Excerpts from the Letter to the Smyrnaeans
CHAP. VII.—LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.
CHAP. VIII.—LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
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steve-b
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The Catholic Church was there at the Meal, you weren’t.steve-b:
No, he was changing the passover meal from one of remembrance and celebration of what God did in the Exodus to a way of remembering and celebrating what He was about to do on the cross on our behalf.
AND
I showed you HERE what the apostles taught directly to a bishop, and direct disciple of John
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steve-b
Guest
Heretics were always there and abound. The apostles warned against them, as did the ECF’s who followed the apostles as does the entire Church, always warned them, as it will warn them and against them till the end of time.Michael16:
I’ve read at least 5 books on Church history by both Catholics and Non-Catholics. It is pretty clear that the church, over time, invented non-Apostolic doctrines (things not taught by the Apostles) and slowly moved farther and farther away from the Gospel message of Christ to the point where the Gospel message is, for many, secondary to the other trappings of Catholicism.
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Michael16
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Yeah, @steve-b.
You’re right.
These guys are quite remarkable. They can take the clearest, most straightforward declarative statements in Scripture and say: “ What white cow? It’s obviously black. “
In my apologetics with them, they more they try to prove their case; the more they prove the Church is, and always was; right from the beginning. I’ve found rich and beautiful depths to my Catholic Faith in arguments with them.
It’s fascinating seeing these guys in action.
They take Scripture and pore intricately over exact wording, ignoring what’s happening in the text and create new doctrines that aren’t there; ignore Tradition and then build up a new tradition, cherry picking passages from the ECFs that they can use to support their ideas and then read their innovations in Church history; claiming that everything they’re doing isn’t new but affirming the ancient faith of the Apostles.
Frankly, it’s breathtaking what they’ve done and how they try to defend it.
You’re right.
These guys are quite remarkable. They can take the clearest, most straightforward declarative statements in Scripture and say: “ What white cow? It’s obviously black. “
In my apologetics with them, they more they try to prove their case; the more they prove the Church is, and always was; right from the beginning. I’ve found rich and beautiful depths to my Catholic Faith in arguments with them.
It’s fascinating seeing these guys in action.
They take Scripture and pore intricately over exact wording, ignoring what’s happening in the text and create new doctrines that aren’t there; ignore Tradition and then build up a new tradition, cherry picking passages from the ECFs that they can use to support their ideas and then read their innovations in Church history; claiming that everything they’re doing isn’t new but affirming the ancient faith of the Apostles.
Frankly, it’s breathtaking what they’ve done and how they try to defend it.
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