The Universal Church

[mcq72]

You and I weren’t declared the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ok…did not know truth does not rest upon Christians, or Christ’s disciples. I wonder why St.Francis could then lead ( into Truth) by example, by his personhood, if indeed truth did not rest upon him.

That title goes to the Church Jesus builds on the apostles

And did not the rock of our foundation say we, like him, are living stones, and I suppose upon which truth rests? How can it not for Truth is also in us and upon us?

 

[mcq72]

The HS isn’t behind all the 10’s of thousands of sects/divisions/denominations etc we see today

Correct, the HS is not behind division and carnality. Yet in the spirit of what St.Augustine says about philosophy, judge it not by its abuses or abusers?

THAT Division as Paul warned, is from Satan.

The division yes, but is Satan divided against himself, for even the Catholic church acknowledges God’s saving works in other churches.

Just as Christ said obey the Seat of Moses ( those ministering His Word), even though they had personal " limitations" or faults, even some doctrinal error to be ware of, so to we are to take one another likewise, as ministers of what is really His universal truth.

 

[ArchStanton]

Fortunately, Christ did not abandon us. He left us His Church.

 

[mcq72]

Fortunately, Christ did not abandon us. He left us His Church.

Amen. Christ in us along with the Holy Spirit and His giftings are not dormant in ministering to one another in the body of Christ.

 

[ArchStanton]

Amen. Christ in us along with the Holy Spirit and His giftings are not dormant in ministering to one another in the body of Christ.

As long as we have unity of belief mcq72…

Eph 3:21 to him be glory IN THE CHURCH and in Christ Jesus to ALL generations , forever and ever. Amen

Jn 10:15-16 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice , and there will be ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD .

Jn 17:21 “…that they may be ONE , as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us …”

1 Cor 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you AGREE in what you say , and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you , but that you be UNITED in the same mind and in the same purpose .

Eph 4:3-6 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT , as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, ONE FAITH , one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Rom 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to THINK IN HARMONY with one another , in keeping with Christ Jesus

Acts 4:32 The community of believers was of ONE heart and mind , and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

Blessings!

 

[steve-b]

You and I weren’t declared the pillar and foundation of truth.

mcq72:

Ok…did not know truth does not rest upon Christians, or Christ’s disciples. I wonder why St.Francis could then lead ( into Truth) by example, by his personhood, if indeed truth did not rest upon him.

I was responding to your question
'do we see clearer than the apostles ? Are we rightly defining their doctrine with such expanded detail?(and upping the price, that is expanding required beliefs) '.

Ergo, I’m saying back to you

While I’m "in the Church", I’m saying I personally, am NOT the pillar and foundation of truth. That title goes to the Church, NOT to me , NOT to you…personally.

mcq72:

And did not the rock of our foundation say we, like him, are living stones, and I suppose upon which truth rests? How can it not for Truth is also in us and upon us?

If we follow the Church Jesus established…then yes. It doesn’t work if we DON’T do that and instead, go off and follow our own path.

 

[TULIPed]

That title goes to the Church, NOT to me , NOT to you…personally.

The pillar and foundation of truth is Jesus Christ, no? He is after all, the way, the truth and the life isn’t he?

 

[steve-b]

The HS isn’t behind all the 10’s of thousands of sects/divisions/denominations etc we see today

mcq72:

Correct, the HS is not behind division and carnality. Yet in the spirit of what St.Augustine says about philosophy, judge it not by its abuses or abusers?

IOW

God didn’t make a sinless Church

THAT Division as Paul warned, is from Satan.

mcq72:

The division yes, but is Satan divided against himself, for even the Catholic church acknowledges God’s saving works in other churches.

Ecumenical speak considered,

taking this in steps

"God desires ALL to be saved"… but Paul doesn’t end there. He continues… "and come to the knowledge of the truth"[ 1 Tim 2:4]

So given THAT, how is it that Jesus (who will be the judge over everyone) says few are going to heaven ? HERE

mcq72:

Just as Christ said obey the Seat of Moses ( those ministering His Word), even though they had personal " limitations" or faults, even some doctrinal error to be ware of, so to we are to take one another likewise, as ministers of what is really His universal truth.

We aren’t here to reinvent what has already been put in place by Jesus for our salvation. We are here to follow and be IN, the institution He instituted, receiving the sacrament He instituted for our salvation.

As it turns out

Jesus, looking forward in time, as He can do, being God the Son, and sees that while He did what HE needed to do for EVERYONE"S salvation, that MOST people, unfortunately, won’t/don’t obey Him, and instead, insist on doing things THEIR way instead of His way…

AND

Because humans don’t live in a consequence free existence, Jesus knowing everything, says in the end, Few make it to heaven

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

That title goes to the Church, NOT to me , NOT to you…personally.

The pillar and foundation of truth is Jesus Christ, no? He is after all, the way, the truth and the life isn’t he?

Yes.

However,

I was quoting from Paul 1 Tim 3:15

“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ἑδραίωμα bulwark / foundation of the truth.”

Bulwark or foundation, depending on one’s translation they use

 

[mcq72]

We are here to follow and be IN, the institution He instituted, receiving the sacrament He instituted for our salvation

Is that what Luther may have meant by “institutional salvation” ?

I think Israel had a similar misunderstanding, and rabbis forgot the basics of grace and new birth (or assumed they had it, after all, they were in the right institution.).

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

We are here to follow and be IN, the institution He instituted, receiving the sacrament He instituted for our salvation

Is that what Luther may have meant by “institutional salvation” ?

Whatever Luther meant, on many things, he was wrong on many things.

AND

He knew his errors perfectly, and his final direction, at judgement, the instant he died.

mcq72:

I think Israel had a similar misunderstanding, and rabbis forgot the basics of grace and new birth( or assumed they had it, after all, they were in the right institution.

Maybe under the old covenant. But Not under the New covenant.

If everybody was fine under the OT then why would Jesus instruct His disciples to

Matt 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons…

Looks to me like Jesus is giving His own people 1st right of refusal on the NEW covenant… Otherwise, why would He say THEY (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) were LOST sheep?

We can’t dismiss the fact the Catholic Church in the very beginning was 100% Jewish.

 

[mcq72]

Whatever Luther meant, on many things, he was wrong on many things.

basically that he was like Nicodemus…hanging out in a garage, doing things you are supposed to do in a garage, does not turn you into a car.

He knew his errors perfectly, and his final direction, at judgement, the instant he died.

this is where you set doctrine aside and its warnings and say, “This is above my pay grade to say which direction Luther went”?

If everybody was fine under the OT …

Few make it to heaven

I think you also misunderstood my point about "being in the right institution…that it does not necessarily make you fine, in fact, could be a deterrence to being in the truth.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I think Israel had a similar misunderstanding, and rabbis forgot the basics of grace and new birth (or assumed they had it, after all, they were in the right institution.).

I agree with steveb. I do not support universalism. I believe the Church has erred over the centuries & has been guided back to truth.

Still I wonder about the division among the Jews of Jesus’ time. I find it curious He came from Galilee, or at least grew up there.

I mean how “Jewish” were the Hebrews living in Galilee, separated from Jerusalem.

We know it was His custom to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath & pilgrim to Jerusalem for the Passover.

Again, I do not agree, but I can see how some would believe they are of the Church, but outside the Church. Arguing against the Pharisees & the Scribes. “Following Jesus.”

So from their perspective they are the body of Christ & the Church has “similar misunderstanding, and rabbis forgot the basics of grace and new birth (or assumed they had it, after all, they were in the right institution.).”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Whatever Luther meant, on many things, he was wrong on many things.

basically that he was like Nicodemus…hanging out in a garage, doing things you are supposed to do in a garage, does not turn you into a car.

?

I’m not following that example.

He knew his errors perfectly, and his final direction, at judgement, the instant he died.

mcq72:

this is where you set doctrine aside and its warnings and say, “This is above my pay grade to say which direction Luther went”?

Did I say where he went ? No. I just said Luther knew at the moment of his death and judgement, where he would be going for eternity.

Isn’t it interesting, by leaving the direction open, how fast one can predict that direction is the bad direction, based on the information one has on a person’s life.

If everybody was fine under the OT …

Why is it, Jesus says Few make it to heaven?

mcq72:

I think you also misunderstood my point about "being in the right institution…that it does not necessarily make you fine,

By itself, that’s true. One must live the life . But I will also add, one needs to be in the right institution.

mcq72:

in fact, could be a deterrence to being in the truth.

I obviously don’t see how.

 

[mcq72]

do not support universalism.

It all depends on what ypu mean by universal church. There arer churches, congregations…they are autonomous yet unifed by same apostoluc teaching, that is each church being a body of Christ with Jesus as head, yet all congregations sharing universal ministry.

believe the Church has erred

I guess you mean in practice and attitude, but not in doctrine.

I mean how “Jewish” were the Hebrews living in Galilee, separated from Jerusalem.

I would think they were quite Jewish. Dont think distance from Jerusalem had anything at all to do with their doctrinal and theological differences

Again, I do not agree,

Not sure what you disagree with. I was being sarcastic when I said Jews thought they were " saved" or " fine" because they were in the right “institution” (being Jewish).

 

[Vico]

…
A holy, mature Catholic and a holy , mature Baptist do not depart one holier, or mature in grace than the other after their respective communions.

A Catholic worthily receives the Body and Blood of Christ, only in the state of sanctifying grace, and by doing so, receives an increase in sanctifying grace and actual graces and the sacramental grace of a greater love of God and of others.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Looks to me like Jesus is giving His own people 1st right of refusal on the NEW covenant… Otherwise, why would He say THEY (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) were LOST sheep?

Israel is interesting. Why did he say Israel & not Jacob?

Israel was the northern kingdom. Samaria & Galilee were once Israel.

 

[steve-b]

do not support universalism.

True

Since

Universalism = all are saved.

That is directly opposed to what scripture and Tradition has taught.

 

[steve-b]

It all depends on what ypu mean by universal church. There arer churches, congregations…they are autonomous yet unifed by same apostoluc teaching, that is each church being a body of Christ with Jesus as head, yet all congregations sharing universal ministry.

As I have posted many times

From the Greek NT study bible

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translation:

ἐκκλησία (ecclesia) = church ,
καθ’ (kata)= according to ,
ὅλης (holos)= whole / all / complete / universal ,
τῆς (ho)= the ,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

SO

Re: "autonomous yet unified by same apostolic teaching"

If,​

they are perfectly united to Peter and those in perfect union with Peter,

THEN

They are Catholic. Otherwise they are NOT

 

[mcq72]

Did I say where he went ?

Correct. You did not. Why I left it as a question, and a hope, that no directional inference was made, which would be contrary thing to do according to CC.

Isn’t it interesting, by leaving the direction open, how fast one can predict that direction is the bad direction, based on the information one has on a person’s life.

What, I saw no prediction in your post, but would guess you would infer a good direction for Luther.
.lol…I mean some Catholics would say he would have been given sainthood, had he remained Catholic.?

I would take any guesstimate for bad direction as prejudicial on your part.