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mcq72
Guest
Yes, no entry into heaven in OT, yet had salvific grace and regeneration of spirit, from Eve on
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mcq72
Guest
Straw man…they were saved by faith in new Testator.
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steve-b
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steve-b:
Yes, no entry into heaven in OT, yet had salvific grace and regeneration of spirit, from Eve on
Yet there was no salvation in the OT. They ALL needed a savior.
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steve-b
Guest
Who are you talking about?steve-b:
Straw man…they were saved by faith in new Testator.
WHY did Jesus say the following to His apostles?
Mt10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,[b] 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without pay, give without pay. 9 Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it, and stay with him until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, salute it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor′rah than for that town.
- Why were THEY lost? THESE are the people of the OT.
- Why did Peter say at Jesus death 1 Pet 3: 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.*
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TULIPed
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When did it open? After Jesus died and rose, or when he was born? I’m asking because during the transfiguration, Moses, Elijah and Jesus had a sit down on the mountain top and wondering how that happened and am too lazy to look it up and my guess is you’ll know it off the top of your head, so this is much easier. The extent of my laziness is breathtaking.
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mcq72
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So you arent saved if not in heaven? Your spirit is dead and unregenerated if not in heaven
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steve-b
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It’s like when Jesus said to the good thief, (depending on where the comma is placed. before or after "today")steve-b:
When did it open? After Jesus died and rose, or when he was born? I’m asking because during the transfiguration, Moses, Elijah and Jesus had a sit down on the mountain top and wondering how that happened and am too lazy to look it up and my guess is you’ll know it off the top of your head, so this is much easier. The extent of my laziness is breathtaking.
“I say to you today, you will be with me in heaven”
or
“I say to you, today you will be with me in heaven”.
Either way, THAT day or after THAT day, the good thief went to heaven. AND it was due to Jesus.
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steve-b
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The question was going to heaven.steve-b:
So you arent saved if not in heaven? Your spirit is dead and unregenerated if not in heaven
If heaven is closed, then people who died before Jesus did His work, went somewhere else. Peter calls it prison. 1 Pet 3: 19-20 where there must be an escape or Jesus wouldn’t go there to preach to those souls. They must be alive in spirit or they wouldn’t be able to process Jesus teaching them
There is also Hell where there is no escape.
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mcq72
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Well, still does not answer if people were saved even regenerated in OT. That was the question.
You responded by saying heaven is closed to them at their time, which we all understand( paradise, abrahams bosom, till Christ opened pearly gates). So were people in paradise saved, regenerated, by faith in Christ, the Word in promise?
You ask who? Well I mean anyone, starting with Adam, then Abel, and other people who believed God and His Word. Who did you think I meant?
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mcq72
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What is alive in spirit, if not regenerated, not dead in trespass?
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steve-b
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Abraham’s bosom, & Paradisesteve-b:
Well, still does not answer if people were saved even regenerated in OT. That was the question.
You responded by saying heaven is closed to them at their time, which we all understand( paradise, abrahams bosom, till Christ opened pearly gates). So were people in paradise saved, regenerated, by faith in Christ, the Word in promise?
were NOT heaven as we know heaven to be in the NT.
AND
It wasn’t hell as we know hell to be in the NT. A place of eternal punishment.
AND
No one could enter heaven, until Christ died and rose from the dead.
You made a rather general statement about those you think are saved,
I gave a quote from Jesus that suggests the house of Israel are lost .
The House of Israel is defined HERE
SO
I’m just asking you for specifics as to who YOU are talking about in your answer back to me.
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mcq72
Guest
Yes, we know this but again were people in Paradise saved, regenerated?
Gave you names…Adam, Abel, A raham…
.was all Israel lost? Jesus, Mary and Joseph were “Israel”. The apostles 12, the disciples 70, the 500 that saw him depart were all Israel.
I am not suggesting if you were Jewish you were saved, just as i wouldnt say all Catholucs or Baptists are saved…but certainly some are.
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steve-b
Guest
I thought we went over these particulars before. Maybe I’m wrong about that.steve-b:
What is alive in spirit, if not regenerated, not dead in trespass?
SO in short
Re: body & soul.
When The body dies , soul and body separate. The body goes to the ground, The soul remains awake. It doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep till the end of time. There is no such thing as soul sleep. The soul remains aware, with memory intellect and will fully functional.
Said another way,
We are immortal from our conception.
AND
at death, we are immediately judged by Jesus. We know at death then, in our soul, where we will spend eternity.
SO
Based on sin, and degree of sin on one’s soul at death of the body, then, at death, and after judgement,
IF
our soul at death, is in (mortal sin ) we go immediately to hell FOREVER … that’s right outta scripture.
SO
after death, having been judged, the soul knows, full well, where they are… and where they will. be …forever
looking forward to the end of time,
Body and soul are reunited.
IF the soul was in heaven, one is then body and soul in Heaven, forever
IF the soul was in hell, one is then in hell body and soul, forever.
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Crocus
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That is the scariest image ever! What agony that soul must experience! The unimaginable dread, far beyond its separated state, that the body would be returned to it, forever.
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steve-b
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Okay…steve-b:
Yes, we know this but again were people in Paradise saved, regenerated?
I am not suggesting if you were Jewish you were saved,
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Vico
Guest
A person that attains heaven is the partial cause of it, by cooperation with the grace that God first gives.
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Vico
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
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Agathon77
Guest
@Margaret_Ann, @lanman87:
Roman Catholic Mariology, Scripturally speaking; basically boils down to three verses.
Genesis 3:15
Saint Luke 1:28
2 Thess 2:15
Essentially, all Mariology is either explicitly stated from the beginning or is found in kernel form that grows later.
Early Mariology of the Apostolic Fathers was tied into defending the Church from Christological heresies like Arianism and Gnosticism.
Now in Genesis 3:15, we see God saying enmity ( opposition) between the woman and her seed and the snake and his seed.
We see her seed. That’s referring to virgin birth and that’s directly foreshadowing Our Lady and her seed is of course Jesus. The snake and his seed being the devil and his angels.
How can there be enmity between Our Lady and the devil if she was ever in the devil’s power as his slave? That’s obviously impossible. Thus, we see the Immaculate Conception. God preserved her from Original Sin at her conception and thus she was sinless. Preventive redemption means she still needed a Savior.
We also see the Immaculate Conception in Full of Grace. In the original Greek, this phrase was perfect past tense. Meaning: An action already completed. Thus, we see that she was already sanctified before becoming the Mother of God.
As for Ever Virgin:
Behold thy Mother. In this verse, Jesus gave Our Lady into the care of Saint John the Evangelist. If Our Lady has other kids; Jesus wouldn’t be giving her into the care of strangers. If she had kids that could take care of her. Thus, she had no other kids than Jesus as by Jewish law and tradition; these kids would look after their mother after the eldest brother’s death.
More later.
Roman Catholic Mariology, Scripturally speaking; basically boils down to three verses.
Genesis 3:15
Saint Luke 1:28
2 Thess 2:15
Essentially, all Mariology is either explicitly stated from the beginning or is found in kernel form that grows later.
Early Mariology of the Apostolic Fathers was tied into defending the Church from Christological heresies like Arianism and Gnosticism.
Now in Genesis 3:15, we see God saying enmity ( opposition) between the woman and her seed and the snake and his seed.
We see her seed. That’s referring to virgin birth and that’s directly foreshadowing Our Lady and her seed is of course Jesus. The snake and his seed being the devil and his angels.
How can there be enmity between Our Lady and the devil if she was ever in the devil’s power as his slave? That’s obviously impossible. Thus, we see the Immaculate Conception. God preserved her from Original Sin at her conception and thus she was sinless. Preventive redemption means she still needed a Savior.
We also see the Immaculate Conception in Full of Grace. In the original Greek, this phrase was perfect past tense. Meaning: An action already completed. Thus, we see that she was already sanctified before becoming the Mother of God.
As for Ever Virgin:
Behold thy Mother. In this verse, Jesus gave Our Lady into the care of Saint John the Evangelist. If Our Lady has other kids; Jesus wouldn’t be giving her into the care of strangers. If she had kids that could take care of her. Thus, she had no other kids than Jesus as by Jewish law and tradition; these kids would look after their mother after the eldest brother’s death.
More later.
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steve-b
Guest
Here is where Jesus gives them instruction on Baptism. This as you can see, is AFTER Calvary.steve-b:
So people were born again before Calvary by the apostles baptism?
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lanman87
Guest
There is know doubt that Genesis 3:15 is the earliest prophecy of Christ in the Scriptures. But to say it is specifically talking about Mary is a stretch. It is talking about Eve and her offspring and the serpents offspring. It is just saying there will always be conflict between mankind and satan but there will eventually be a “He” that will crush satan.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, (the woman is Eve)
and between your offspring and her offspring; (Eve’s offspring-which is all of mindkind)
he (Christ) shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
I did find something interesting when comparing different translations of Genesis 3:15
Genesis 3:15 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Genesis 3:15 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Then after looking that difference up I found this:
The Latin Vulgate version of the Old Testament has an unfortunate translation in [Genesis 3:15]). It changes the pronoun from the masculine his to the feminine. This unfortunate translation gave wrongful support for the claims concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary. The idea that Mary was the seed of the woman has no basis in fact in the Scripture.
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