The Universal Church

[mcq72]

As for the exact process of the Immaculate Conception: It’s understood that Original Sin was prevented from infecting Our Lady as she was being conceived.

Totally understand thank you… your position as Mary, a perfect human being, conceived in an imperfect, ungraced, unsanctified Jewish mother?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

person that attains heaven is the partial cause of it, by cooperation with the grace that God first gives.

Well, as you know this is disputed by some, that we partly save ourselves, or have partly caused it. Indeed we seem to have a problematic will that without God is not so free. Yet choose ye this day says scripture, for you have been predestined since befor the foundations of the earth were laid!!?

.

It is the Catholic teaching however.

Catholic Encyclopedia:

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[lanman87]

The phrase, full of grace; is kecharitomene. It is derived from the Greek word, charis. Translates as literally grace. The literal meaning of kecharitomene is “ endued with grace “

There is a lot of disagreement about how kecharitomene is to be translated. Grace simply means unmerited favor. Most modern translations say “highly favored” or “favored one”. (including the NRSV Catholic Edition) It simply means that Mary had been given a special unmerited status with God. She had been chosen for the highest honor any human could ever have. To bring the Christ into the world. To say it means anything else is to bias the text with preconceived thoughts.

Also consider verse 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.

If Mary was born with sin and remained without sin then you think she wouldn’t have been perplexed by being called “Highly favored” or “Full of Grace”. Either way, she would have known she was special and that God had set her apart for some special purpose instead of being shocked at Gabriel’s greeting.

We see in the frescoes from Roman catacombs that images of Our Lady

Not according to the BBC: Link for Article

“There is yet another piece of the Priscilla puzzle that calls traditional modes of thought into question: the supposed fresco of the Virgin Mary. Said to date to the 3rd Century, the painting shows a veiled woman with a child in her arms. If it is of Mary, it is the oldest image of Jesus’ mother in existence. But it is also an odd one. The small fresco is oddly placed, tucked up on high, on the ceiling. Aside from this one, the first recognised images of Mary come from the 5th Century – after the Council of Ephesus in 431 officially recognised Mary as the mother of God.”

Considering that in the first and second centuries; the Fathers like Pope Saint Clement and Saint Irenaeus were successors of men who retained living memories of the Apostles and doctrines fresh from these same men; if such doctrines like the New Eve and Panhagia were not consistent with what the Apostles taught the Fathers themselves or the men who taught them, within three generations of time; these same Fathers wouldn’t have taught them.

Can you show me where Clement or Irenaeus taught that Mary was sinless and an “ever virgin”? Instead of simply saying that she was a virgin when Christ was born. I know that Irenaeus called her the new Eve (in so many words) but that doesn’t mean he thought she was a sinless ever virgin.

 

[Vico]

…
I know that Irenaeus called her the new Eve (in so many words) but that doesn’t mean he thought she was a sinless ever virgin.

The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary, Against Helvidius.

1. Now that I have cleared the rocks and shoals I must spread sail and make all speed to reach his epilogue. Feeling himself to be a smatterer, he there produces Tertullian as a witness and quotes the words of Victorinus bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proved from the Gospel— that he spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary, but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship not by nature. We are, however, spending our strength on trifles, and, leaving the fountain of truth, are following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenæus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views, and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man. But I think it better to reply briefly to each point than to linger any longer and extend my book to an undue length.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Then after looking that difference up I found this:

The Latin Vulgate version of the Old Testament has an unfortunate translation in [Genesis 3:15]). It changes the pronoun from the masculine his to the feminine. This unfortunate translation gave wrongful support for the claims concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary. The idea that Mary was the seed of the woman has no basis in fact in the Scripture.

This is the 1899 Douay-Rheims:

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

[15] “She shall crush”: Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

 

[Vico]

… There is a lot of disagreement about how kecharitomene is to be translated. …

It is a perfect tense passive participle which carries the meaing of “has already been”, and it is the present state resultant upon a past action.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Think about it: Would you, As God; want the Word to be born from a sinful woman?

Also, since God created Eve immaculate (Gen. 2, she didn’t sin until Gen. 3), then why would He not do the same and even more for the Woman who would bear His Only-begotten Son?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The Old Law didn’t convey any grace. So, you’re arguing a straw man.

IIRC, all the sacrifices of the OT derived their value from the future death of Christ. Is that right?

 

[lanman87]

It is a perfect tense passive participle which carries the meaing of “has already been”, and it is the present state resultant upon a past action.

Agreed, one of the best definitions I found was “Having been graced” or “having been given favor”. All it means is that for some reason, some time in the past, Mary was given grace. Verse 30 says that she “Found” favor with God. If she was born with “grace” then how did she find it? To say anything more than God gave her grace is to read more into the text than it says.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

It is a perfect tense passive participle which carries the meaing of “has already been”, and it is the present state resultant upon a past action.

Agreed, one of the best definitions I found was “Having been graced” or “having been given favor”. All it means is that for some reason, some time in the past, Mary was given grace. Verse 30 says that she “Found” favor with God. If she was born with “grace” then how did she find it? To say anything more than God gave her grace is to read more into the text than it says.

The Greek has a meaning of “to meet with without a previous search” as one possible translation.

 

[mcq72]

Also, since God created Eve immaculate (Gen. 2, she didn’t sin until Gen. 3), then why would He not do the same and even more for the Woman who would bear His Only-begotten Son?

I am glad the CC says such an immaculteness is not necessary, but rather " fitting". I see a different kind of “fitting”.

Satan knew Jesus came from a glorious place. He tempted Christ with the splendor of all the earth’s kingdoms. Christ denied the temptation, remembering the humble origins of His mission, no palace but a stable, in little Bethlehem .

He came to take on human flesh, to walk on fallen soil and touch and be touched by fallen flesh. He came to take on the sin of the world, of man, even become sin, for our sake. So to me anything more than a Jewish virgin maiden, anything more than to grace a human like you and I for His mother would be counterintuitive to His mission. One can find comfort that He came as low as one could come, to be familiar with our infirmities and weaknesses, and so too Mary.

I have a less affinity to the Immaculate first Eve, and CC second Eve, as I do to the fallen but regenerated and graced Eve(s), like you and I.

Nothing dogmatic, just “fitting”.

Let us travel light in our mission.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

When The body dies , soul and body separate . The body goes to the ground, The soul remains awake. It doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep till the end of time. There is no such thing as soul sleep . The soul remains aware, with memory intellect and will fully functional.

You mention nothing about our spirits.

The soul IS spirit. It is the unseen part of us, who are a combination of the seen and unseen.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Verse 30 says that she “Found” favor with God. If she was born with “grace” then how did she find it?

St. Alphonsus beat everyone to it :

"The angel Gabriel expressly declared this for our consolation, when he saluted the Blessed Virgin saying, Fear not, Mary, thou hast found grace. 5 But if Mary had never been deprived of grace, how could the archangel say that she had then found it? A thing may be found by a person who did not previously possess it; but we are told by the same archangel that the Blessed Virgin was always with God, always in grace, nay, full of grace. Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. 6 Since Mary did not find grace for herself, she being always full of it, for whom did she find it? Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text, replies that she found it for sinners who had lost it… On this subject, Richard of St. Laurence concludes, “that if we hope to recover the grace of God, we must go to Mary, who has found it, and finds it always.” 2. And as she always was and always will be dear to God, if we have recourse to her, we shall certainly succeed.

1. Ne timeas, Maria, invenisti enim gratiam. - Luke, i. 30.
2. Ave, gratia plena! Dominus tecum."
3. Cupientes invenire gratiam, quaeramus inventricem gratiae, quae, quia semper invenit frustrari non poterit." - *De Laud. V. I. 2. p. 5.

Source: de Liguori, St. Alphonsus Maria. The Glories of Mary. Grimm, Rev. E., C.Ss.R., translator. Complete Works of St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Vol. VII and VIII in One. 4th reprint revised. 1931, Brooklyn, NY: Redemptorist Fathers. Reprinted by O.L. of Victory Mission. Imprimatur.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

(post withdrawn by author)

 

[mcq72]

“that if we hope to recover the grace of God, we must go to Mary, who has found it, and finds it always… if we have recourse to her, we shall certainly succeed.” St.Alphonsus

I am sorry but this is so far out there.

Don’t know of any salvation, (though possible),a turning around repentant soul, finding such grace by consciously going to Mary first.

If it is implied, ok, yet the same could be said of everyone in her lineage, right back to Eve.( eg- father Abraham).

Most are “turned around” not by Mary’s grace but by her offspring Christ and His goodness towards us ( as exemplified in a once Mary like us).

 

[steve-b]

Margaret_Ann:

“that if we hope to recover the grace of God, we must go to Mary, who has found it, and finds it always… if we have recourse to her, we shall certainly succeed.” St.Alphonsus

I am sorry but this is so far out there.

Don’t know of any salvation, (though possible),a turning around repentant soul, finding such grace by consciously going to Mary first.

If it is implied, ok, yet the same could be said of everyone in her lineage, right back to Eve.( eg- father Abraham).

Most are “turned around” not by Mary’s grace but by her offspring Christ and His goodness towards us ( as exemplified in a once Mary like us).

While not addressed to me, I was reading your post, and had a few thoughts.

Re: Grace

It was the angel Gabriel, who addressed Mary, not by her name Mary, but as God sees her… Hail “Full of grace.”

Angels are messengers. They speak only what God says they are to say. Mary is FULL of GRACE

AND

This salutation, recognizes her this way, before she has agreed to be impregnated by the HS, and become the mother of Jesus (the Son of God) who would incarnate (become man) in her.

THEN

As a result of her YES, She would have inside her, the source of all grace to the world… Jesus.

THAT

relationship of being Jesus mother, Is forever.

Therefore

Asking her to intercede for us, to her Son, for all the graces needed in life, is perfectly in order.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Thank you, @steve-b! May your holy namesake always help you to defend the Catholic Faith!

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[steve-b]

Thank you, @steve-b! May your holy namesake always help you to defend the Catholic Faith!

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AND

Thank YOU, for your defense of the Catholic Faith​

AND

for all your kind “likes” on posts

 

[Agathon77]

@mcq72 , as established in Sacred Scripture: In Saint James 2:18-24 it says that faith apart from works doesn’t justify and that Abraham was justified by faith completed in works.

Your argument is a straw man.

As for your statement regarding the Immaculate Conception, you’re saying that human nature trumps God and God can’t prevent the infection of Original Sin if He so desires.

Another straw man.

As for your assertion that the Church doesn’t teach necessity; only fitting: You’re flat out wrong. The Church teaches, rightly; that all four Marian Dogmas ( Mother of God, Ever Virgin, Immaculate Conception and Assumption ) are necessary for salvation and are Revelation. Plus: All Catholic Dogmas regarding Our Lady points to her relation to Christ, indeed points to Christ and helps her to cooperate with Christ in the economy of salvation.

Your assertion of traveling light is a misnomer as we Catholics have the truth and fullness of the Faith that gives us all that we need to make it home to God as His beloved children.

Ianman87,

The Roman frescoes I cited were found in an online article, “ Mary in the Early Church “ by Dr Mark Miravalle, a prominent Mariologist; attests to the first century/Apostolic Age dating of these frescoes.

A more trustworthy source than the BBC, IMHO.

As for full of grace: That statement, past tense/already completed; attests that Our Lady already was in a state of grace before Saint Gabriel the Archangel’s visit in the Annunciation. Full of grace; not just in a normal state of grace. That means she has an overflowing, superabundance of grace in her.

Her perplexity, this goes to prove her Ever Virgin status; was because she was a consecrated virgin of the Lord who was understandably perplexed as to how she’d conceive a son without violating her vow.

As for the rest of the proof of Ever Virgin:

The cousins reference you dislike is from the Hebrew, which didn’t have a separate word for cousin and had to use brethren or brothers. In the OT, you see Abraham and Lot referring to each other as brothers. Also: Saints James ( The Brother of the Lord ) and Jude would have been the proper men to whom Our Lord would entrust His Mother to their care; if they were in fact brothers of Our Lord by Mary. They didn’t leave when Jesus spoke literally about eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood in Saint John. They didn’t receive Our Lady into their care; thus: They aren’t Jesus’ brothers by blood.

Plus, the Greek word in the NT for brothers is adelphoi. Adelphoi was used to denote any sort of family relations not specifically those of blood siblings. There was a separate word for blood siblings and that word was never used for Jesus’ brethren in Scripture.

Saint Jerome, who translated the entire Bible, twice; into Latin from the original languages and was intimately familiar with both Hebrew and Greek. Saint Jerome, according to Faith of the Early Church by Fr Nicholas Gregoris; learned Hebrew from a rabbi and spoke Greek. He was intimately familiar with both of these languages and was the greatest biblical scholar of the Church Fathers.

 

[mcq72]

Asking her to intercede for us, to her Son, for all the graces needed in life, is perfectly in order.

Again, if the implication is ok (not explicit), all saints are intercessors, right down to the first Eve, without whhich you would never have had Mary, etc…

What is next to imply is that those same saints residing in heaven are like Christ now (a future promise), and are they ever present and omniscient, as to hear and pass on our supplications to Christ ?

Finally, at least in my circles, we hear no testimonies of unbelivers coming to salvation by crying out to Mary first.