The Universal Church

[Agathon77]

@Margaret_Ann,

By the way: Thank you so very much for sharing with me the link to Christ Our Pascha. The sections on Spirituality of the Heart, apatheia and living in the Holy Spirit were very helpful in my spiritual life.

As for your question:

The Old Law was basically a set of conditions that Israel had to meet, under human will power alone and without grace; in order to merit justification and God’s blessings. The liturgical laws in Leviticus were animal sacrifices to atone for and restore the broken covenant relationship offended by sin.

IMHO, I believe the only relationship the Old Law has with Christ is that the Law shows how human effort alone will fail to merit justification and that we need the perfect Victim of Christ Our Pascha to atone for us, reconcile us to the Father and grant us the access to grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit we need in our struggle for salvation against sin.

@mcq72,

Four quotes from Scripture that explicitly teach intercession of the saints:

Tobit 12:15:

“ I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One. “

RSV-CE

Revelation 5:8

Revelation 8:3

Revelation 8:4

Before you argue about Tobit, please recognize that Christians used the Septuagint, which was the Alexandrian Canon; and indeed the NT quotes from the Septuagint and references the deuterocanonical books and the Jews in the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD adopted the Palestinian Canon in opposition to the Christian use of the Septuagint.

The Protestant canon is the Palestinian Canon of the Jews; not a Church canon. As post Christ, Jewish councils are no longer authoritative for Christians.

My reference is Fr Oscar Lukefahr, CM’s “ What We Believe: A Survey of the Catholic Faith “

Quoting Saint Augustine:

“ A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and aided by their prayers. “

Against Faustus the Manichaean, 400 AD

I can supply further references upon request.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Asking her to intercede for us, to her Son, for all the graces needed in life, is perfectly in order.

Again, if the implication is ok (not explicit), all saints are intercessors, right down to the first Eve, without whhich you would never have had Mary, etc…

Yes, All saints are, intercessors.

Excerpt from Intercession of the Saints—Day One | Catholic Answers
…. As we profess in the Apostles Creed, “He descended into hell.” This does not mean the hell of the damned, of the reprobate, but rather of that state in which the just were still deprived of the vision of God. Our Lord descended to these souls and brought them the light of glory and the vision of the face of the Most Blessed Trinity, their essential happiness as human beings. These included Adam and Eve, Abel (the first martyr and the first man to die), and all the patriarchs and prophets and simple believers of the Old Covenant. He gave them the vision of his face. Of them he had spoken while he was yet preaching on the earth: “Other sheep have I who are not of this flock, these also must I lead.”
After his resurrection and his granting of the blessed vision to the departed, Our Lord spent forty days appearing to his faithful in Galilee and elsewhere. But on the day of his definitive departure and entry into his heavenly glory, he brought with him all those who were ready and to whom he had granted the reward of eternal life and future resurrection. This is the day of his ascension into heaven. He did not go alone, but rather brought with him all of those who from the foundation of the world had lived and given witness to the true God and his revelation.

mcq72:

What is next to imply is that those same saints residing in heaven are like Christ now (a future promise), and are they ever present and omniscient, as to hear and pass on our supplications to Christ ?

does the saints’ ability to hear so many prayers make them omniscient, or all knowing, like God?

The nature of omniscience see this explanation Does Praying to the Saints Mean They're Gods? | Catholic Answers

mcq72:

Finally, at least in my circles, we hear no testimonies of unbelivers coming to salvation by crying out to Mary first.

Why would an unbeliever even know of Mary in the first place?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Do you think the Apostles taught the doctrine of Mariology orally and it was just never recorded in Scripture? If so, how do you know?

Do you think the apostles taught and practiced Sola Scriptura, Ian?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Also consider verse 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.

If Mary was born with sin and remained without sin then you think she wouldn’t have been perplexed by being called “Highly favored” or “Full of Grace”. Either way, she would have known she was special and that God had set her apart for some special purpose instead of being shocked at Gabriel’s greeting.

But what else was said?

Luke 1:38 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)​

38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

Certainly looks like she knew she was the chosen one in this passage. She isn’t A handmaid of the Lord, she is THE handmaid of the Lord. And she declares all generations will call her blessed.

And notice the perfect obedience. It’s not Eve who marches to the beat of her own drum and finds forbidden fruit. It’s not Moses who literally angered God by asking him to find someone else, lol.

Another point to make – God doesn’t call her Mary. It’s “Hail, full of grace” – or in your opinion, “Hail, Favored one”. Either way, it would be similar to you calling Lebron James ‘Mister basketball’ instead of using his actual name. It’s a state of being.

In regards to the new Eve claim, Gen 3:15 (enmity between Satan and the woman) parallels Rev 12, which many of the Fathers believe to be talking about not only Israel, but also the Virgin.

And the scriptures did not come with chapter divisions. The end of Rev 11 has this scene with the Ark of Covenant, which we believe is Mary, followed by this duel between her and Satan in the next chapter.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’ve heard Jimmy Akin admit that this is a very poor translation. He says that Jesus is the one crushing the serpent’s head. But yes, enmity between the woman and Satan.

 

[Agathon77]

@Lenten_ashes,

Your quote of Saint Luke 1:28 just blew me away. I had to go over the verse again and yes: Saint Gabriel didn’t call her Mary; he called her kecharitomene. Thank you, that was a beautiful thing you just did.

@Ianman87,

In Hebrew tradition, when someone is given a name ( Like Saint Peter ) the name is the person or object. Not just a label. As an ELCA pastor once agreed with me. Hail, Kecharitomene; the Lord is with thee!

Saint Gabriel called her by a name. A name that is a past tense completed action that is her. She is an overflowing, superabundant state of grace and thus is sinless as sin is completely foreign to one whose fundamental nature is that of full of grace.

Now, that we see that name is person/object and a new name fundamentally alters the very nature of that person/object, we see that Saint Peter, by his very nature as altered by Christ Himself; is the Rock upon which Our Lord built His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

He didn’t give Saint Peter a new name and then said: “ Oh, by the way; I’m going to go off now and found Christianity. “

Thus we see that denominationalism, schism and division are inherently unbiblical and contrary to God’s Will as seen by Jesus’ own Words and then later taught by the Apostles and then on to their successors, to whom they passed on their authority and charisms; the Holy Father and the college of bishops.

To hold otherwise in all of these points above is to hold to the made up traditions of men and not the Word of God.

 

[Agathon77]

@Ianman87,

Now to tackle the Real Presence and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

A: The consecrated bread and wine is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine.

B: The Eucharist is the Sacrifice of Christ, in an unbloody manner offered to God the Father and is done in remembrance of Christ; instituting a New Covenant in His Blood.

Basically, as laid out by Dr Scott Hahn ( A former Presbyterian pastor and seminary professor who converted to the the Faith and now teaches covenantal theology at Steubenville) in his book “ The Fourth Cup “.

In it, Jesus spoke literally when He said, several times I might add; one must eat My Flesh/Drink My Blood.

Now, I remember you saying that Christ wouldn’t violate Mosaic Law. Christ did and altered the Law as He saw fit. Examples given: Gleaning food in the fields on a Sabbath, healing on a Sabbath, His Teaching in divorce… et cetera.

When the disciples heard Our Lord’s hard saying in Saint John, they left. Jesus asked the Apostles why they didn’t. Saint Peter said: “ Where else will we go? “

That statement shows that they took Jesus at face value, since He is the Son of God and the Messiah; on faith and didn’t logic chop or grammatically diagram or otherwise interpret His Word. They took it as literal truth at face value on faith.

The Passover seder is a liturgy that sacrificed a lamb in a memorial meal that commemorates the Passover of Exodus. Jesus, as identified in Saint John by Saint John the Baptist; is the Lamb of God. In this seder, there are four cups of wine. Miss anything in the Liturgy of the seder; one just invalidated the whole seder.

Jesus stopped at the third cup, the cup of blessing; and spoke the words of Institution: This is My Body/This is My Blood… Do this in remembrance of Me. The fourth cup, the cup of consummation; He deliberately omitted; saying: I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I drink it New in the kingdom of heaven.

In the Agony of the Garden, He prayed: “ If this cup could pass from Me… Your Will be done, not My Own. “

Then, after His Passion ( carefully recorded by Saint John to show that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of a Passover sacrificial lamb ) Our Lord, Who refused offers of drink until just before He died and drank the one cup of wine mixed with vinegar; and said: “ It is finished “ and died shortly thereafter.

Thus, in reply to your question; the Upper Room and Calvary are connected into one liturgy, presided over by Christ our High Priest and sacrificed the Lamb of God ( Christ Himself ) in a Passover seder; that began in the Upper Room and was completed on Calvary.

Now, your central objection at this point is In remembrance of Me.

I answer with: Leviticus 5. In it, the priest offers a memorial portion of the sacrifice for sin.

Christ is our High Priest Who offered Himself as a Sacrifice and instituted the words: In remembrance of Me.

Check out Saint Justin Martyr’s Apology If you doubt this. In it, you’ll see Saint Justin’s description of the Order of the Mass and defending the Real Presence.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

@Lenten_ashes,

Your quote of Saint Luke 1:28 just blew me away. I had to go over the verse again and yes: Saint Gabriel didn’t call her Mary; he called her kecharitomene. Thank you, that was a beautiful thing you just did.

Thank you. Like so many of us, the RCC’s teachings on our Lady were my biggest obstacle before converting. And I honestly still didn’t get it until I saw the typology.

 

[Agathon77]

You’re welcome, @Lenten_ashes.

In my journey home, it was Our Lady who led the way and yet she was also a stumbling block for me. Like many Protestant converts.

It always amazes me, in my apologetics; at how blind I was to the beautiful Catholic truth of Sacred Scripture. I’m humbled and grateful that God graced my mind and heart to be opened and freed. And now, I get to defend His Truth

Wow, Lenten. Again, thanks

 

[Agathon77]

@Ianman87,

As for your interpretation of Saint Ignatius of Antioch’s symbol statement of the Eucharist in one of his letters:

I read the UGCC’s Catechism, Christ Our Pascha. In it, the Creed is called the Symbol of Faith.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, @Margaret_Ann.

If the Creed is a mere symbol, does that mean Ukrainian Greek Catholics only ceremonially and symbolically state what they believe in the Creed?

A Creed is a statement of faith in what we believe is to be true.

Thus, when Saint Ignatius of Antioch spoke of the Eucharist as Symbol; he spoke of that we believe to be true that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood.

With all these points made this morning; the burden of proof shifts to you.

 

[mcq72]

In regards to the new Eve claim, Gen 3:15 (enmity between Satan and the woman) parallels Rev 12, which many of the Fathers believe to be talking about not only Israel, but also the Virgin.

And also with Psalm 69:8,

I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.

Psalms 69:8 KJV

Psalm 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother's children. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother's children.

www.bible.com

If Rev12 is both, so is this Psalm, and not only covering Israel with “stranger to my brethren”, but then doubling down more specifically with “(my) mother’s children”.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I’ve heard Jimmy Akin admit that this is a very poor translation. He says that Jesus is the one crushing the serpent’s head. But yes, enmity between the woman and Satan.

The Douay-Rheims is a faithful translation of the Vulgate, which is to the best of my knowledge still the official translation of the Church. Here’s Gen. 3: 14 in both the Douay-Rheims & Vulgate.

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius : ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.

 

[mcq72]

As for your statement regarding the Immaculate Conception, you’re saying that human nature trumps God and God can’t prevent the infection of Original Sin if He so desires.

Where did I ever say human nature trumps God, and God can’t do something?

Is it wrong to say, " Let us not suppose that because God can that He did,"?

As for your assertion that the Church doesn’t teach necessity; only fitting: You’re flat out wrong.

You are the one who brought up the “fitting” in post 1392 or thereabouts, as many others have also, so as to not limit God to what He can or can’t do, so as not to suggest God could not incarnate a regular Jewish virgin as prophesied without immaculteness as suggested by CC.

The Church teaches, rightly; that all four Marian Dogmas ( Mother of God, Ever Virgin, Immaculate Conception and Assumption ) are necessary for salvation

Now this is something different, of necesity and fitting . This is a new context, being brought up by you here.

Yes, we all understand CC necesity to believe all Marion doctrine.

Your assertion of traveling light is a misnomer as we Catholics have the truth and fullness of the Faith that gives us all that we need to make it home to God as His beloved children

Now here i do address perhaps your concern for necessity of faith in Marion doctrine . We just disagree on dogmatizing such musings. I do not think the IC or Assumption, or ever virgin, or co redemptrix are necesary to believe for salvation or a hindrance to that, or for a clean conscience, or it being sinful not to believe them. Disagree on their ex cathedra status ( IC, Assumption), but respect them as implied and fitting possibilities by fellow brethren.

 

[Agathon77]

That’s beautiful, @Margaret_Ann that you bolded ipsa. That proves that Saint Jerome, who spoke both Hebrew and Greek; that Sacred Scripture spoke of the woman; not just her seed, having enmity with the serpent.

Thank you so much!

 

[Margaret_Ann]

You’re welcome. I have to take a timeout and get ready for Divine Liturgy. Back later.

 

[Agathon77]

Same here @Margaret_Ann, I’m about to go to Mass in 3 degree weather. Got to love Nebraska!!

 

[Agathon77]

@mcq72,

On the first point, if you had said “ Let us suppose He didn’t “ as your defense; that would’ve been much clearer.

But, still: Since He can; you claim He wouldn’t?

Second point: You made a specific claim that the Church supposedly taught something when she doesn’t. I addressed it.

As for our evidence for the Immaculate Conception; part of it was the logical deduction that if God saw it was good and fitting; therefore He’d do it. Your counter claim seems to imply He wouldn’t and that’s problematic from our knowledge of God’s Nature.

You need to present to us evidence to prove your claim that if Immaculate Conception was good, fitting and that He wouldn’t do it.

Third point: Present your evidence please that we’re supposedly wrong to back up your assertion.

Fourth point: First, I notice that you’ve retreated from stating that these three dogmas are wrong and providing a biblical argument against them. Now, you’re stating that they’re implied possibilities that you disagree with dogmatizing about, even though Ever Virgin was declared dogma in the one of the first seven ecumenical councils that your founders accepted and Luther taught Our Lady’s Assumption as late as 1525 and Luther and Bultmann both taught Our Lady’s sinlessness in the 16th century; and you’re conceding they are possible.

You’ve gone from dismissing and trying to disprove these three dogmas to allowing their possibility and respecting that we hold them.

 

[Agathon77]

@mcq72,

I’ve done some study on your point concerning Psalm 69:2 and Rev 12.

Rev 12 is clearly speaking about the Blessed Virgin Mary. As well as the Ark of the Covenant at the end of Rev 11.

I’m not sure I’m understanding just what your point is regarding comparing Psalm 69:2 with the passages of Rev 11-12.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Are you in the Diocese of Lincoln? I heard that they’re really good over there.

 

[Agathon77]

@Margaret_Ann,

Archdiocese of Omaha. I live in Bellevue near the Air Force Base. My Dad’s a retired Air Force Tech Sergeant.