The Universal Church

[steve-b]

steve-b:

we’ve discussed these discussions

YES

Those docs are discussions …, discussions that are ongoing

Have I ever said otherwise?

If solutions were settled by the Church on the subjects discussed, , discussion would be over…true?

Have I ever said otherwise?

The point I am making, that you ignore, is that these statements represent the agreed mind of both the Catholic and Orthodox Church as we work toward a future solution that will allow restoration of communion between our Churches. It is exceedingly difficult to have a conversation with you when you respond to points I (and others here) are not making.

It shows the points being discussed. If they had authority to act on these discussions we’d be living it now.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Just because one has what they would say is “Faith”, does it mean that faith they say they have is going to save them.

So is that a yes or a no?

Said another way

Faith alone won’t save.

So I ask you in return, why can’t you answer THAT?

lanman87:

Because the question of “those people” being divisive by not holding to the teachings of Paul is another topic.

So who is absolved from the warnings Paul gives?

There are hundreds of millions of people on the earth today who’s sincere belief is that they are filled with the Holy Spirit by faith (or I should say, came to faith by an act of the Holy Spirit) and are in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ(where the Holy Spirit lives in them) and believe they live their lives by faith. I’ll ask again. Are they lying and/or deceived according to your understanding of scripture (which includes Paul)?

Paul included ANYONE / EVERYONE in his warnings, who divide. They were taught what was right and they disagreed with it and divided over some teaching. Ergo the consequences of his warnings befall THEM

Paul never says at the end of his warnings, except for all those who do good works. He doesn’t say that.

lanman87:

I’ll try one more time.

Are they lying (or deceived) about the Holy Spirit bringing them to faith?

What faith?

If faith is faith, and there is no difference, why does Paul condemn those who obviously have faith, but divide from or go into heresy, schism, etc etc from the Church he is building…the only Church Jesus established?

lanman87:

Are they lying (or deceived) about the Holy Spirit living in and guiding them?

What did Paul say?

"Those who dissent / Divide/ διχοστασίαι don’t serve Our Lord…

SO?

lanman87:

I know what Paul says, I want to know what you say. Once again, a simple yes or no will work.

I gotta side with Paul.

 

[lanman87]

What faith?

Faith in Christ.

Once again, you don’t seem to have the ability to answer a question, only ask questions.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What faith?

Faith in Christ.

Once again, you don’t seem to have the ability to answer a question, only ask questions.

Everybody Paul wrote to “believed in Christ”. He was writing to the Church as in writing to people in the Church in various locations. Pagans would have no use for his writings. Was believing in Christ enough? NOPE. Or we would have no consequences for any activities that show where Paul draws the lines

AND

in extension, None of the writers of he NT wrote to pagans. They wrote to the Church. People who already believe in Christ

SO

I’m answering the question, you just don’t like the answer.

 

[Isaac14]

It shows the points being discussed. If they had authority to act on these discussions we’d be living it now.

Not surprisingly, you’ve avoided the point I made. I clearly stated the various documents represent the mind of our churches as it pertains to the ongoing discussion of achieving restored communion. I have NEVER said they represent a “done deal” as you seem to want to think. These are points of agreement in the path to restoration of communion, not the final agreement.

 

[lanman87]

Everybody Paul wrote to “believed in Christ”. He was writing to the Church as in writing to people in the Church in various locations.

Okay, let me ask this another way.

Paul says *I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Do non-Catholic (Roman Catholic) Christians not serve our Lord Christ when they give a cup of cold water in Jesus Name, when they sponsor children through Compassion International, whey they give money and volunteer at the local Crisis pregnancy center, when they travel to countries that are opposed to the Gospel of Christ and risk death or imprisonment to share the good new of Christ with un-reached people groups?

Do you honestly think that they are serving their own appetites and are in it for themselves?

or are they being led by the Holy Spirit to do such things?

 

[mcq72]

Neither highlighted group existed in Paul’s day.

oh, good, then neither did Baptist or Assembly of God. His schismatic warnings are for the church down the street perhaps, but not mine…nope , not listed

ALL mentioned are Protestants. ALL are in division from the One True Church. ALL a lateral movement within Protestantism.

Again, knife cuts both ways,they would say CC is in division from One true Church, however with no lateral movement ( is that a cult like feature?, well, at least held together by strong tradition ?).

now THAT (crossing Tiber) would NOT be a lateral move. THAT would be an example of one ending their division from the Catholic Church.

I meant by “crossing the Tiber” as those leaving Rome, ending their division from the true church (crossing the Thames?)

Thinking all of Protestantism is equal to the Catholic Church, is the definition of indifferent.

Correct. If i thought my church was equal to CC I would not be spending my time hear, like why would i preach to the choir?

example of 4 errors in indifferent thinking

Actually we also teach and objective narrow path to salvation, very narrow, in fact impossible also, save by the grace of God. We eliminate all other paths, philosophies, religions as such. I also believe like you that ecumenism goal is to bring others to the Truth, that unity is not at cost of fundamental faith precepts. Like “can there be peace between us” when so many are in bondage to error?

 

[TULIPed]

“38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.”

It seems our Lord anticipated some of the discussion on this thread…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Everybody Paul wrote to “believed in Christ”. He was writing to the Church as in writing to people in the Church in various locations.

Okay, let me ask this another way.

Paul says *I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Do non-Catholic Christians not serve our Lord Christ when they give a cup of cold water in Jesus Name, when they sponsor children through Compassion International, whey they give money and volunteer at the local Crisis pregnancy center, when they travel to countries that are opposed to the Gospel of Christ and risk death or imprisonment to share the good new of Christ with un-reached people groups?

Do you honestly think that they are serving their own appetites and are in it for themselves?

or are they being led by the Holy Spirit to do such things?

May I suggest a hierarchy of order in thought

When Jesus gave the 2 great commandments

Mt 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

SO

1. Love God above EVERYTHING (vertical) reality (creator)
2. Love your neighbor as yourself (horizontal) reality (creation)

Here’s an observation using your example

you’re making the horizontal argument, the 2nd commandment, Loving your neighbor. That’s good.

Q’s​

What about the 1st commandment?

What about loving God first over everything? IOW doing things His way first over EVERYTHING?

For example:

Jn 17: says John 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway

What If one is NOT in HIS Church, he is not one, and therefore is NOT receiving the sacraments Jesus established for our salvation, and chooses freely instead, to NOT to be in His Church but rather be in a purely divided manmade endeavor instead?

THEN

is it OK to follow, THAT way , instead of HIS?

Jesus point is,

The first commandment always comes first. It is over EVERYTHING. THEN comes the 2nd commandment. Nobody can reverse that order.

As Jesus said

Lk 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

IOW the 1st commandment is always first, THEN comes the 2nd commandment

 

[lanman87]

What about loving God first over everything ? IOW doing things His way first over EVERYTHING?

How about the fact that the reason you follow the second commandment is because your deep love and desire to serve God (follow the first commandment)?

But you still didn’t answer my question.

are they being led by the Holy Spirit to do such things?

 

[SyCarl]

I hope I don’t get into trouble for this, but perhaps he is afraid to answer because it would show him as not accepting the teaching of his own Church?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore**, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,** whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Unless the Catechism is in error, the Catholic Church says that the Holy Spirit works in non-Catholic communities so that saying it doesn’t would mean not accepting a teaching of the Church.

 

[TULIPed]

Unless the Catechism is in error, the Catholic Church says that the Holy Spirit works in non-Catholic communities so that saying it doesn’t would mean not accepting a teaching of the Church.

Wait for it…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What about loving God first over everything ? IOW doing things His way first over EVERYTHING?

How about the fact that the reason you follow the second commandment is because your deep love and desire to serve God (follow the first commandment)?

One could also say, Atheists do good works as well and they don’t even believe in God.

AND

One could also say, if a person loved God over everything , they would do everything they could to be in His Church and receive His sacraments.

lanman87:

But you still didn’t answer my question.

Sure I did.

Said another way

Not everyone who calls Jesus Lord necessarily has what it takes.

Mt 7:
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Sound familiar?

are they being led by the Holy Spirit to do such things?

Are the people talked about above self deceived?

 

[steve-b]

Actually we also teach and objective narrow path to salvation, very narrow, in fact impossible also, save by the grace of God. We eliminate all other paths, philosophies, religions as such. I also believe like you that ecumenism goal is to bring others to the Truth, that unity is not at cost of fundamental faith precepts. Like “can there be peace between us” when so many are in bondage to error?

Re: Your last question

“can there be peace between us” when so many are in bondage to error?

Isn’t that the never ending topic for a thread?

“heresy is alive and well. The Code of Canon Law defines heresy as “the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith” (canon 751). The Catechism of the Catholic Church identifies heresy as a sin against faith and thus against the First Commandment CCC 2089.”
excerpted from : The Grammar of Dissent | Catholic Answers

That said

since Protestantism, regardless of stripe, invented in the 16th century, and on into history, ☞ is one of the great heresies in history,

While tons of effort has been expended to correct the heresies withing that system, reality seems to only be getting worse not better.

Ergo Jesus prophesied back in the 1st century, looking forward in time,

Jesus said few are saved

Meaning everyone else isn’t

 

[lanman87]

Are the people talked about above self deceived?

That is what I’m asking you. Is the Holy Spirit really working in their hearts and lives or are they deceived?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Are the people talked about above self deceived?

That is what I’m asking you. Is the Holy Spirit really working in their hearts and lives or are they deceived?

I ask questions

I 'm not a mind reader. And I don’t read souls.

 

[mcq72]

since Protestantism, regardless of stripe, invented in the 16th century, and on into history, ☞ is one of the great heresies in history ,

Again, this (invention) would be true if indeed the Church operated in a vacuum, and was robotic in nature, even unconditionally static. Since she does not, invention is the wrong word

For sure Protestantism is a reaction, a development not apart from the Body of Christ, but indeed from the heart or conscience of said body/ church, from the root system.

Ergo Jesus prophesied back in the 1st century, looking forward in time,

Jesus said few are saved

Meaning everyone else isn’t

Precisely.

Interesting, the CC has carte blanche by receiving the prophecy of His guidance and presence always but not of coming falling or heresies or fables, of making election sure, of few being saved, within and by herself…

In my opinion, uncharitably calling reformation an invention is like a malignancy calling anti bodies an invention.

 

[TULIPed]

I 'm not a mind reader. And I don’t read souls.

Ah yes - but you can read actions. Why would someone profess to love Christ AND do that which he commands. Yes, yes - we can argue over what % of Christ’s commands are followed - but take the ones we agree upon - sacrificial giving, selflessness, giving one’s life for another. Why would someone do these things on their own?

We can see and understand people doing one thing or the other. An atheist might give away a great deal of their income (Alex Honnold comes to mind - he gives away a third(!) of what he earns) - but they wouldn’t do it AND profess to love Jesus.

Why would someone like Eric Liddell (https://www.ericliddell.org/about-us/eric-liddell/biography/) - a professing Christian - risk his career and his reputation by refusing to run a race in the Olympic Games on the sabbath? Why would Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Dietrich Bonhoeffer | Loyola Press) RETURN to Nazi Germany to spread the gospel after escaping, only to be executed days before the Allies liberated the concentration camp in which he was incarcerated? Why would William Wilberforce (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/wilberforce_william.shtml) risk his political career and reputation to support the outlaw of slavery in Great Britain? And on, and on and on.

Do all these people who profess Christ AND sacrifice greatly - sometimes ultimately - on his behalf, are they all deceived? Are their actions not indicative of the work of the Holy Spirit? Can these people not love Christ simply because they were raised and believe in a way to love Him that may differ from yours? I’ll bet you a box of doughnuts I know what the Holy Father would say…

 

[mcq72]

I 'm not a mind reader. And I don’t read souls.

Was gonna answer this post but scrapped it. However reading Tuliped response encouraged me, having similar thoughts.

Was gonna say Jesus said we can judge, but to do so righteously. We can judge actions, fruits, words, for out of the abundance of the heart (soul) the mouth speaks.

You do have ears and eyes to see and hear us. Jesus told John’s disciples what to tell John what they were seeing and hearing, to judge Jesus rightly as the Anointed One.

 

[Wannano]

I hope I don’t get into trouble for this, but perhaps he is afraid to answer because it would show him as not accepting the teaching of his own Church?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore**, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,** whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Exactly. You nailed the problem completely. AND FOR A CATHOLIC TO NOT ACCEPT THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH MAKES HIM A HERETIC WHO IS DIVISIVE…