The Universal Church

[mcq72]

Do all these people who profess Christ AND sacrifice greatly - sometimes ultimately - on his behalf, are they all deceived? Are their actions not indicative of the work of the Holy Spirit? Can these people not love Christ simply because they were raised and believe in a way to love Him that may differ from yours? I’ll bet you a box of doughnuts I know what the Holy Father would say

What is obvious is that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. Catholicism is not the only tradition in which to follow Christ.

Trouble is with one side of the mouth the CC graciously admits this in Lumen Gentia post by Sy Carl/ Wannano, but the other side of the mouth is controlled by hardliners who infer a personal dubious salvation without her Sacraments and knowingly refusing her truth and supreme authority (and of course any salvation is due to Catholic truth, thus retaining a “Catholic unity”, and hence still “no salvation outside the Catholic church”).

So in my opinion the CC keeps peace within between her “soft liners” and her " hard liners". Both are realists. The first in acknowledging the graces and realities of non Catholics. The hard liners in acknowledging firmly some of her unique teachings , and setting any aside ( admitting others right) would "by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.”( PiusXI).

CAF seems to have both kinds of Catholics here. I might also say the soft liners certainly do not destroy the very foundations of the CC, but more surely rest on some of Christ’s foundational truths that made the CC in the first place, giving hope for the future.

 

[steve-b]

I hope I don’t get into trouble for this, but perhaps he is afraid to answer because it would show him as not accepting the teaching of his own Church?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore**, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. "Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,** whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

The answer is simple. It’s been given before

Those 2 sections don’t end there.

Otherwise
throw the whole need to evangelize, away. Just because one is born into error, doesn’t mean that’s a be all to end all excuse …forever!

Otherwise
throw the following away too, and all the Catechism as well
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

[846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as
necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

SO

Once someone knows the truth, THEN they need to respond to that truth and fix it.

OR

they become guilty of the error

 

[Isaac14]

Once someone knows the truth, THEN they need to respond to that truth and fix it.

OR

they become guilty of the error

I’m going to stay Orthodox, but thanks for trying.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

since Protestantism, regardless of stripe, invented in the 16th century, and on into history, ☞ is one of the great heresies in history ,

Again, this (invention) would be true if indeed the Church operated in a vacuum, and was robotic in nature, even unconditionally static. Since she does not, invention is the wrong word

For sure Protestantism is a reaction, a development not apart from the Body of Christ, but indeed from the heart or conscience of said body/ church, from the root system.

Ergo Jesus prophesied back in the 1st century, looking forward in time,

Jesus said few are saved

Meaning everyone else isn’t

Precisely.

Interesting, the CC has carte blanche by receiving the prophecy of His guidance and presence always but not of coming falling or heresies or fables, of making election sure, of few being saved, within and by herself…

In my opinion, uncharitably calling reformation an invention is like a malignancy calling anti bodies an invention.

The Church reforms herself the correct way. NOT through those who are in error themselves and revolt.

The Church went through 18 ecumenical councils and enumerable number of local councils before Protestantism was even a thought. And to address the errors of Protestantism, Trent, the 19th ecumenical council was called for

 

[John_Martin]

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church; all other “denominations” are outtakes from the Catholic Church; they are non-communing parts who in most cases wish to stand in protest outside the doors and refuse to come in, and want the Universal Church (Catholic Church) to be other than it really is.

Any “Christian” is a Catholic, yet many in some type of protest don’t want to admit their “membership”.

It is a false image to say that there is “the Catholic Church and then the wider Christian Church including all ‘denominations’”.
It is, rather, that there is “the Catholic Church as the Christian Church with a number of its members protesting their membership and their being as Catholic.”

When Peter did not want Jesus to go to Jerusalem to be crucified, Jesus did not split in half to partly follow Peter and partly go to die.
Jesus does not follow self-defined Christianity, but has defined it, even if some pretend it is other than he defines it.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Once someone knows the truth, THEN they need to respond to that truth and fix it.

OR

they become guilty of the error

I’m going to stay Orthodox, but thanks for trying.

As I’ve said many times. I just give information "Properly referenced". what anyone does with it is up to them.

We all answer for the choices we make…agreed?

 

[lanman87]

Once someone knows the truth, THEN they need to respond to that truth and fix it.

Okay, a question. By “know” do you mean hear it or accept it or both?

Consider the following two scenarios.

Scenario 1- You tell a Non-Catholic Christian, the Catholic churches teaches all the truth, they listen to what you have to say and then and they go, “Sorry, I don’t agree with you”.

Scenario 2- You tell a non-Catholic Christian the same thing and they reply, “I can’t deny your understanding and what you are saying, but even so, I’m not becoming Catholic”

Are both doomed to hell for their refusal to enter into the Catholic church?

 

[lanman87]

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church

The question is, is the Roman Catholic church the universal church? Or is the universal church made up of the Roman Catholic church, Orthodox Churches, and Protestant Churches; In as much, as those millions of individuals in those churches are “new creations in Christ”, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and “live by faith”?

 

[steve-b]

lanman87:

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church; all other “denominations” are outtakes from the Catholic Church; they are non-communing parts who in most cases wish to stand in protest outside the doors and refuse to come in, and want the Universal Church (Catholic Church) to be other than it really is.

Any “Christian” is a Catholic, yet many in some type of protest don’t want to admit their “membership”.

It is a false image to say that there is “the Catholic Church and then the wider Christian Church including all ‘denominations’”.
It is, rather, that there is “the Catholic Church as the Christian Church with a number of its members protesting their membership and their being as Catholic.”

When Peter did not want Jesus to go to Jerusalem to be crucified, Jesus did not split in half to partly follow Peter and partly go to die.

I’d just say

Given how little Peter knew at that moment in time, of the whole plan Jesus had, Peter 's response to Jesus when Jesus said He would die, was like one friend Peter saying to his friend Jesus, I’ll protect you Jesus from that ending. And we know Jesus response.

Pentecost fixed all the apostles lack of knowledge

John_Martin:

Jesus does not follow self-defined Christianity, but has defined it, even if some pretend it is other than he defines it.

 

[Isaac14]

As I’ve said many times. I just give information "Properly referenced" . what anyone does with it is up to them.

We all answer for the choices we make…agreed?

In accordance with the properly referenced information you’ve provided to me, and given my refusal to join the Catholic Church, what do you, Steve, believe about my eternal status?

 

[TULIPed]

A good analysis. I suppose - and am sad to say - we have the same people and positions on the Protestant side of the fence. The road to reconciliation is indeed long and challenging…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Once someone knows the truth, THEN they need to respond to that truth and fix it.

Okay, a question. By “know” do you mean hear it or accept it or both?

Consider the following two scenarios.

Scenario 1- You tell a Non-Catholic Christian, the Catholic churches teaches all the truth, they listen to what you have to say and then and they go, “Sorry, I don’t agree with you”.

Scenario 2- You tell a non-Catholic Christian the same thing and they reply, “I can’t deny your understanding and what you are saying, but even so, I’m not becoming Catholic”

Are both doomed to hell for their refusal to enter into the Catholic church?

As I’ve said before, I’m no mind reader nor can I read souls.

THAT’s why I don’t expect ANYONE to take my word for ANYTHING. After all who am I?

I’ll just say

The information to support the Catholic Church going back to Jesus instituting it, is of avalanche proportion. All one has to do is show the evidence. It’s ALL THERE.

AND

Since Jesus created the Catholic Church, grace is always working, for HIS and our benefit, for EVERYONE to be perfectly IN the Catholic Church He established. No playing games with language and terms. He wants EVERYONE “IN” His Church. Not outside looking in, not just one toe in, not just 1 foot in, but fully “IN” His Church. He doesn’t force but saying no as He says, is a big mistake.

SO

Since it is by grace 1st

Then

I believe once one hears the truth, then that truth resonates in that person. A choice needs to be made by them. If they respond correctly to grace, they will come into HIS Church,

AND

He knows before all that is came into being, what everybody from beginning to the end of time, will choose. No surprises. Bad news is, He says only a few are saved. Meaning most said no to Him

Just an add on

Before anything that is was created, He knew you and I would be having this discussion

 

[mcq72]

The Church reforms herself the correct way.

Of course she does,and she is above reproach in this, unlike all other human institutions involving man.? .

NOT through those who are in error themselves

well that could about disqualify everyone, for no man is perfect

And to address the errors of Protestantism, Trent, the 19th ecumenical council was called for

precisely. Protestants errors were addressed and zero of any of the CC. In fact , you further solidified the perceived errors seen by reformers.

 

[John_Martin]

The question is, is the Roman Catholic church the universal church? Or is the universal church made up of the Roman Catholic church, Orthodox Churches, and Protestant Churches; In as much, as those millions of individuals in those churches are “new creations in Christ”, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and “live by faith”?

Let me be more precise - every time there was a split of any sort, whether from Schism or Excommunication (such as with Protestants), the Church which was “split from”, is still the Universal, the Catholic, Church. Every “organization” that left the Church by breaking away or being told to stay outside the doors is still a part of the Universal Church, but not (necessarily) allowed in communion.
Thus a Lutheran is a Catholic, but does not know it, protesting against it, but from the Catholic Church’s side, is an ex-communicant of the Catholic Church. A Catholic and a Lutheran are not some “distant brothers” under a larger umbrella known as “Christian” with some vague other worldly leadership that no one can appeal to on earth.

Now, you are presuming to know a lot when you assert things like “indwelled by the Holy Spirit” or that certain people “live by faith”. People are well able to assert what is not knowable but can only be proclaimed by an apostolic authority -
In the Catholic Church, per apostolic authority, all members are "new creations in Christ, in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit, and only alive by faith (which is infused in them by the Spirit as a gift, one of the Theological Virtues). And all members of the Catholic Church, obedient to the Rock, include all who participate and all who protest defiantly, not yet willing to penitently return.

 

[mcq72]

Any “Christian” is a Catholic, yet many in some type of protest don’t want to admit their “membership”.

Our protest is not against membership, but against denial of freedom to exist as a member according to one’s convictions.

Hence many P’s will tell you they are catholic/Catholic, the word used in Nicea council. They will however , make the distinction of Roman Catholicism being something else.

No one denies that the church was first a Jewish sect with descriptors of "follower of Jesus’ or Nazarene, then “people of the way” then "Christian’ , then “catholic” or “universal” to “Catholic” ( all letters were always capitalized back then).

Jesus does not follow self-defined Christianity, but has defined it, even if some pretend it is other than he defines it.

Precisely. We each call each other “pretenders”.

Despite having such a better covenant and graces and dispensations than others ( still not better than the perfect, newly created Adam and Eve in the garden), we each much have an enlightening encounter with the Living One to personally come to believe, “What has God, (Jesus) truly said…”
…and no one , not even a perfect Adam, is above from erring. A garden or a church can not keep you from this (encounter and possible error)

 

[John_Martin]

Our protest is not against membership, but against denial of freedom to exist as a member according to one’s convictions.

Peter wanted the “Church” to be according to his convictions (that Jesus must not be allowed to go to Jerusalem to die), but Jesus denied him the freedom of his convictions saying, “If you want to come behind me you must come behind me and take up your cross also”.
When we became Catholic (or our forbears, like Martin L.) we pledged obedience to following, rather than to directing our superiors.

BTW, someone denies that the “church was first a Jewish sect”: since its beginnings there were bishops apostolically appointed to teach, to reprove, to correct, and to train in righteousness using the Scriptures they were given. It was and is a new and complete “thing”, this “Church”, not a division of anything else and not divisible.
Pretenders? The Catholic Church, under the Rock, has always officially taught what it has received, and never what it has thought up as a “better way”. It does not re-define itself nor its Lord, nor submit itself to re-definition as one church among others.

 

[steve-b]

I 'm not a mind reader. And I don’t read souls.

TULIPed:

Ah yes - but you can read actions. Why would someone profess to love Christ AND do that which he commands. Yes, yes - we can argue over what % of Christ’s commands are followed - but take the ones we agree upon - sacrificial giving, selflessness, giving one’s life for another. Why would someone do these things on their own?

I have an atheist friend who does those things. For him it’s purely a personal thing since for him God doesn’t exist

TULIPed:

We can see and understand people doing one thing or the other. An atheist might give away a great deal of their income (Alex Honnold comes to mind - he gives away a third(!) of what he earns) - but they wouldn’t do it AND profess to love Jesus.

And THAT’s the point. My atheist friend does good works and God isn’t in any part of his life.

TULIPed:

Why would someone like Eric Liddell (https://www.ericliddell.org/about-us/eric-liddell/biography/) - a professing Christian - risk his career and his reputation by refusing to run a race in the Olympic Games on the sabbath? Why would Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Dietrich Bonhoeffer | Loyola Press) RETURN to Nazi Germany to spread the gospel after escaping, only to be executed days before

[snip for space]

Do all these people who profess Christ AND sacrifice greatly - sometimes ultimately - on his behalf, are they all deceived?

Are you trying with that question to relativize what Jesus established and wanted perfect unity in?

For space, I gave an answer on another thread that puts together pertinent links HERE

IOW

There is only ONE Church that qualifies.

Everybody else is NOT in it.

TULIPed:

Are their actions not indicative of the work of the Holy Spirit?

Divisions, schisms, heresies etc are not part of the HS

TULIPed:

Can these people not love Christ simply because they were raised and believe in a way to love Him that may differ from yours? I’ll bet you a box of doughnuts I know what the Holy Father would say…

The Holy Father, wouldn’t deny this statement from the CCC

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

 

[mcq72]

When we became Catholic (or our forbears, like Martin L.) we pledged obedience to following, rather than to directing our superiors.

yes, but Jesus also told the apostles to obey those in Moses seat , but not their bad doctrine and their hypocrisy. Jesus also said to obey church/civil authorities but the jailed apostles continued to disobey and preach the gospel.

Jesus told Peter to get behind me Satan as well as saying just before , you are a rock/stone leader. Peter was corrected, unlike many some his successors in our opinion

BTW, someone denies that the “church was first a Jewish sect”: since its beginnings there were bishops apostolically appointed to teach, to reprove, to correct, and to train in righteousness using the Scriptures they were given. It was and is a new and complete “thing”, this “Church”, not a division of anything else and not divisible.

well, that is like saying Protestantism is not a division of what what became to be the Roman Catholic church. Our roots are Jewish. We are engrafted into their vine/branch.

nor submit itself (CC) to re-definition as one church among others.

That is sadly for sure.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

As I’ve said many times. I just give information "Properly referenced" . what anyone does with it is up to them.

We all answer for the choices we make…agreed?

In accordance with the properly referenced information you’ve provided to me, and given my refusal to join the Catholic Church, what do you, Steve, believe about my eternal status?

The information I gave was not from me as you can see. I am not the author. I don’t make the rules. All I can do is do my best to try and follow the rules. That’s all anyone can do…right? Those rules apply to me as they do for you and everyone

And

Based on the information given, You have made your choice…true

SO

What does the information given say about your choice?

 

[TULIPed]

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it .336

Which - as you’ve said before - limits all the ecumenical things written in UR to only those with special needs. (Seems like the Church spent an awful lot of time on that document though - I wonder why they didn’t just say that?)

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (among many others) - did not have special needs (he wrote a number of books after all, the most famous being “The Cost of Discipleship”), other than one to try share the gospel with as many people in Nazi Germany as he could, at the risk - and ultimately cost - of his life. It’ll be interesting to see where people like him end up.

Are you trying with that question to relativize what Jesus established and wanted perfect unity in?

No Steve - I’m challenging your view of what the gating items are for determining one’s relationship with Christ. Yours is - “Are you a card carrying member of the Catholic Church?”. Mine is - “Do you - by word and act - sacrificial, costly action - profess and live to love and serve Jesus Christ?”

It’s easy to show up on Sunday Steve. Almost nothing Jesus asks us to do is easy, is it?