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Isaac14
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It says you believe the Catholic Church believes I am condemned to hell. Or have I misinterpreted the information you’ve provided?
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steve-b
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.htmlsteve-b:
Which - as you’ve said before -
- ………Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God’s gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.
According to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), “the Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection—divided, yet in some way one—of churches and ecclesial communities” Dominus Iesus, #17 The CDF went on to say that the faithful can’t say the one Church of Christ doesn’t really exist or that it is merely a goal toward which all Christians should strive. They must instead acknowledge that “the elements of this already-given Church exist, found in their fullness in the Catholic Church” as taught by John Paul II Ut Unum Sint #14 _
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steve-b
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The Second Vatican Council taught that this one Church of Christ: Constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church [emphasis added], which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity Lumen Gentium, #8 in addition to #8 It should also be quoted #14, of Lumen Gentium, tucked in amongst all the ecumenical speak, “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”… “They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops”.
“Whosoever” covers everyone…not just Catholics
To be “in” the Church therefore, one must be Catholic fully incorporated into the Church.
Are you trying with that question to relativize what Jesus established and wanted perfect unity in?
No to the last point
And to your other points
See above
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steve-b
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Yes it says one isn’t saved.steve-b:
It says you believe the Catholic Church believes I am condemned to hell. Or have I misinterpreted the information you’ve provided?
But I have to put the answer in order of who it is from
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition,
So, God comes first, in the answer, then …
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Isaac14
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Thank you for finally answering with clarity.
It’s surprising though that the same Catholic Church you say believes I am condemned to hell would also welcome me, despite being Orthodox, to commune.
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steve-b
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agreedsteve-b:
Jesus said we can judge actions, fruits, words, for out of the abundance of the heart (soul) the mouth speaks.I 'm not a mind reader. And I don’t read souls.
All I’m saying in return,
I have to ask questions to see what the motive is for an action.
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steve-b
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For clarity, scripture is named first in order, of that statement, that says one isn’t saved who is in schism… unless of course one doesn’t die in that state of schism.steve-b:
Thank you for finally answering with clarity.
It’s surprising though that the same Catholic Church you say believes I am condemned to hell would also welcome me, despite being Orthodox, to commune.
I’ve posted the scriptures for that many times.
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Isaac14
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All well and good, but that doesn’t address why on the one hand the Catholic Church says I am welcome to commune while on the other saying my schism as an Orthodox Christian condemns me to hell.
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mcq72
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As I stated, the CC is trying to please both sides of their constituents, the soft liners and hard liners. Main thing is to get people to stay in, or come back in, and not get lost in the possibly misleading minutia/details. But of course one wonders just how serious they are on these dogmas dealing with non Catholic Christians if that is the main thing (to be a card carrying member and not rock the boat with details, as the term was posited earlier).
The CC deserves prayer (like all churches), over this , one of their internal issues, in my opinion.
For sure, for sure, we will not go by or be known by any of these temporary sectarian names in heaven, including “Roman Catholic”, nor for entrance therein.
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mcq72
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actually you have stated the CC says we are presumed lost and i see you asking no questions beyond that
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TULIPed
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Add one to the “agree” column. Excellent.
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steve-b
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The Orthodox person can receive if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed.steve-b:
All well and good, but that doesn’t address why on the one hand the Catholic Church says I am welcome to commune while on the other saying my schism as an Orthodox Christian condemns me to hell.
That last part i.e. being in a state of grace, (no mortal sin), permission from your Church etc etc
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steve-b
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Not presumed. If one meets the criteria, THEN one is in the category that draws the consequences.steve-b:
actually you have stated the CC says we are presumed lost and i see you asking no questions beyond that
AND
Let’s be clear. the Traditions we follow are oral & written that come from the apostles.
Just so you know where it comes from
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MichaelP3
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What if I ask? I am properly disposed? You are not a mind reader so you cannot say I am not? OR you have some other “properly referenced piece of INFORMATION you would like us all to take in”.
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Isaac14
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But isn’t that a catch 22, “the Catholic Church invites you to receive, but since you’re schismatic Orthodox, you can never actually be in a state of grace…so no communion for you”
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MichaelP3
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This is an utmost imprtant post! I honestly do not think Steve-b understand what you are asking here and considering his posts I cannot think he ever will. But then again we can only hope and have faith.
Steve-b, you like to give “Information and think you are okay” but have you ever actually stopped and thought about what you are responding to? It really just seems like you have a set answer to everything with no real “answer” although you really think you do!
And on this please respond to the relevance and not just isolating a point.
Steve-b, you like to give “Information and think you are okay” but have you ever actually stopped and thought about what you are responding to? It really just seems like you have a set answer to everything with no real “answer” although you really think you do!
And on this please respond to the relevance and not just isolating a point.
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steve-b
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steve-b
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Turning that around,
Have YOU actually stopped and thought about
- Protestantism being 100% man made, and tha’t OK? what does that mean scripturally?
- you have set disagreements to every answer and it doesn’t matter the answer, you disagree
- Yet you think you have the answer(s)
- What’s the name of YOUR church? Who (individual(s) name) stated it, and when (date) was it started?
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steve-b
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Short read http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...guidelines-for-the-reception-of-communion.cfmsteve-b:
But isn’t that a catch 22, “the Catholic Church invites you to receive, but since you’re schismatic Orthodox, you can never actually be in a state of grace…so no communion for you”
Bottom line, one needs to be free of mortal sin, so one needs to go to confession first, if one is in mortal sin… and there is no open Eucharist.
You need to live by the same rules Catholics do. It’s NOT like Catholics have one set of standards and non Catholics get by with another or no standards…and still waltz up to communion
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Isaac14
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Steve, you know full well the link you provided allows for the reception of the Eucharist by Orthodox Christians. It, nor the relevant canon law, does not place a restriction that Orthodox must repent of their schism and become Catholic in order to receive. I’m also fully aware this is not meant for ordinary circumstances, but rather for unique or emergency situations. But even limiting to specific circumstances does not require that Orthodox remove what you perceive as the mortal sin of schism by repenting and becoming Catholic.
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