The Universal Church

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ziapueblo said:
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steve-b:
Mutual estrangement
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But the context in which it is used here:

“Unfortunately, however, the gradual and mutual estrangement between the Churches of the West and the East deprived them of the benefits of mutual exchanges and cooperation.”

“Speaking of the lack of unity among Christians, the Decree on Ecumenism does not ignore the fact that ‘people on both sides were to blame’, and acknowledges that responsibility can not be attributed only to the ‘other side’.”

ZP
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Who’s making all the efforts for 1000 yrs to reunify? It is the CC

The Orthodox are all separate churches. NO ONE speaks for ALL the different Orthodox churches. NOW there is schism with ~70% of Orthodoxy with the ecumenical patriarch. There was supposed to be a PAN Orthodox meeting in 2016, which is supposed to be EVERYBODY in one council, something that hadn’t supposedly happened before. What happened? The Russians boycotted the meeting.

SO

A council took place but a PAN Orthodox meeting/council didn’t happen

Q:​

What Now? What then does THAT schism do for ecumenical dialogue?
 
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steve-b said:
What Now? What then does THAT schism do for ecumenical dialogue?
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Have you addressed your concerns to the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church? Per their website, they’ve met as recently as late 2019. What seems to bother you so much hasn’t gotten in their way.
 
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Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
Really?
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Yes, really. The verse from Acts says absolutely nothing about Peter being leader of the church.
steve-b said:
2nd reference Mt 18:15-17
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This reference also says nothing about Peter. In the very next verse Jesus indicates all the apostles have the power to bind and loose. You asserted this only belongs to Peter.
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Peter has been given power from Jesus, greater than given to the others. Peter has been given the keys. Keys are not mentioned being given to anyone else

This is why certain sins are emphasized in the CCC describing certain actions people find themselves in

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

Scripture shows, It would be disastrous for one’s soul to die in any of those sins.
 
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Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
What Now? What then does THAT schism do for ecumenical dialogue?
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Have you addressed your concerns to the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church? Per their website, they’ve met as recently as late 2019. What seems to bother you so much hasn’t gotten in their way.
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Does schism still exist?
 
how would a person catch up on a thread this long, to join in the conversation… is there a point where a thread starts over?
 
steve-b said:
The CC, with all those in perfect union with Peter,
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Why do we even have perfect union with Christ, the Head Bishop of our destiny?

Yes and no. Yes, for we are seated in heavenly places (now). No in comparison to when we will be fully like Him in that great day.

So if we are not in perfect harmony with Christ yet in some way, how can we be in perfect harmony with Peter in some way. And if that is true for Catholics, not being in perfect harmony with Peter, why are you not accepting of others who are not in perfect harmony also?

Now if you truly believe in your (Catholics) perfect harmony with Peter I would think you ( (Catholics) also had perfect assurance and hope for your salvation also.
 
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annad347 said:
how would a person catch up on a thread this long, to join in the conversation… is there a point where a thread starts over?
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🤣 I understand your point

OK,

will this help? I’ll ask,

You identify your Religion as catholic/lutherin/non denominational

Q:​

Are you all 3, or are you ONE of them, showing your progression / history in beliefs?
 
steve-b said:
It’s no dodge. The council of Lyons 800 yrs ago, felt positive THEN about solving schism. Did it ( the positive feelings) pan out? Nope
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So because something failed 800 years, we can’t have hope today for a different outcome?

It’s a shame your not part of the Catholic contingent of that Commission so you can set them straight and save everyone the time and effort.
 
mcq72 said:
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steve-b:
Why would I presume all the manmade inventions that came after that could even argue rationally that THEY can usurp those promises for themselves against the will of perfect unity Jesus not just suggests but commands.
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Calvin had a field day with this on Luke 16:2 commentary…of the manmade legalities of CC, ursurping the freedom and grace in the apostles gospel.

Acts 16 Calvin's Commentaries
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Calvin? lecturing anyone on Man made legalities? Really?
 
steve-b said:
Actually, Paul adapted for himself and what he taught, THAT which he criticized Peter for.
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Nice try. Apples to oranges.

Most Catholic apoligists dont run from Peter’s practice not matching his teaching here. They do defend about making it more than that, as some do.
 
steve-b said:
Calvin? lecturing anyone on Man made legalities? Really?
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Yes really. Even Augustine and Cyprian had to warn against overlording legalism on various occasions.

But agree that as many fingerpointers are concerned, including Catholic, they just may have a few fingers pointing back at them. I cut Calvin some slack, for he came out of disadvantaged times and traditions, in my opinion.(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Lol…but so true
 
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Isaac14 said:
It’s no dodge. The council of Lyons 800 yrs ago, felt positive THEN about solving schism. Did it ( the positive feelings) pan out? Nope!
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Also, I noticed you didn’t open the link. You tend to get upset when people don’t open your links…
 
Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
It’s no dodge. The council of Lyons 800 yrs ago, felt positive THEN about solving schism. Did it ( the positive feelings) pan out? Nope
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So because something failed 800 years, we can’t have hope today for a different outcome?

It’s a shame your not part of the Catholic contingent of that Commission so you can set them straight and save everyone the time and effort.
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Who says there is no hope?

I’m showing you who historically is doing all the work in trying to solve the issue.

If the Orthodox were ONE, which they are NOT, dialogue would be all together a different endeavor.

Gong back to 2002, Card Kasper who was THEN, head of ecumenical activities for the Vatican, wrote

“We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist,” he contends. “At the present stage, it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox Churches; there are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow.”
from https://zenit.org/articles/the-crisi...rdinal-kasper/

Given the schism that took place in 2016 between the EP and Moscow (the Russian Orthodox), his statement was a bit of a prophesy don’t ya think 😉

BTW

How is THAT Russian schism going? Any solutions on the horizon?
 
steve-b said:
Who says there is no hope?
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Certainly not the Commission that met in Nov 2019, well after all the Orthodox issues that have you so concerned. The Commission seems to be working despite it; perhaps they know something you don’t?
 
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