The Universal Church

[JonNC]

annad347:

Except for a few tiny details both services are almost the same. hope that answered you’re question.

But you won’t find a picture of the pope anywhere (in Lutheran church).lol…by the way, dont worry about goin off topic, sometimes we just go where the wind blows

I think the difference you would find, honestly, between Lutheran and Catholic worship is references to the Blessed Virgin Mary (outside of the creeds).
Frankly, Lutheranism would do well to reference her more for the incredible role model she is.

 

[mcq72]

Frankly, Lutheranism would do well to reference her more for the incredible role model she is.

She has one of the best, inspired prophetic speeches in the bible.(Magnificat)…incredible coming from a young teenager, even “layperson” for lack of better word.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Frankly, Lutheranism would do well to reference her more for the incredible role model she is.

She has one of the best, inspired prophetic speeches in the bible.(Magnificat)…incredible coming from a young teenager, even “layperson” for lack of better word.

[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Where ever, Paul works, he’s a founder

"Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

“This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.”… because he was preaching where none had gone before, not where they had already heard (Rome).

You totally go agaisnt Paul’s specific words.

Peter focused on Jews, Paul on Gentiles. No conflict on Paul’s part. Besides, Paul’s restriction on himself doesn’t pass onto Peter. Peter is over the WHOLE Church.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Who told you that? Reference?

Greek NT Manuscripts - Biblical Manuscripts - ResearchGuides at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

link didn’t open for me. Must have issues with it

Irenaeus was a Catholic Bishop. He was in full communion with the chair of Peter. Peter’s last see was Rome. Therefore, THAT is the context of Irenaeus mentioning Rome. Because that is where Peter’s succession comes from, for the bishops who follow Peter.

lanman87:

Unless of course, he didn’t actually write what is attributed to him.

Do you say the same about sctipture

Irenaeus was from the East.

lanman87:

Irrelevant, can you show any of his contemporaries who repeat or expound on what he is being attributed as saying?

Irrelevant maybe in your mind.

Bishop Irenaeus, in his time, was one man away from the apostle John. Irenaeus is in the One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, that only Jesus founded and builds through His apostles and those they ordained in direct succession to THEM . It’s The Church Irenaeus wrote defending, in his work "Against Heresies". His work applies today as well

with heretics today…

AND those with the following issue

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

Lots of people today, in that category

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So

Where ever, Paul works, he’s a founder.

Nice wordplay. He wasn’t there for 22 years but he is still a founder. Founder means, one who establishes or starts something. You can’t start or establish something that is 22 years old.

Whatever Paul an apostle adds to, that isn’t there currently, he starts what is new from him.
Peter is still over the entire Church

 

[MichaelP3]

You may benefit from going through “The Institutes of the Christian Religion”. Sometimes one needs to broaden their view

 

[steve-b]

next is the key…

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles Peter and Paul . . .”

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

What’s the point? …
ZP

What’s the point?

Irenaeus says the Church of Rome is the greatest with preeminent authority over all, because of it’s founders Peter and Paul. Bk 3 Ch3 vv 1-3

AND

He further mentions where this idea of preeminent authority comes from. He says it’s from Peter and Paul

AND

Irenaeus then names 12 bishops BY NAME, in succession from Peter down to Irenaeus day who passed on that information faithfully. .

you completely disregard the bios of those 12 bishops mentioned by name, in succession from Peter, who provide the evidence then, for Irenaeus point he made as to WHY the Church of Rome has preeminent authority. This is an argument from the Church level, NOT a secular political argument that you are trying to make it into

 

[steve-b]

You may benefit from going through “The Institutes of the Christian Religion”. Sometimes one needs to broaden their view

With all due respect

Considering: Calvinism | Catholic Answers

AND

the fact Calvin is one of the great heretics in history,

I’ll pass on reading his work .

 

[TULIPed]

Apparently not all Catholics share your views (of not reading his work at least):

John Calvin's 15 Surprisingly Catholic Views| National Catholic Register

 

[ziapueblo]

Irenaeus then names 12 bishops BY NAME, in succession from Peter down to Irenaeus day who passed on that information faithfully. .

Because, “it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches“

He is clear in his reasoning for using the Romans Church for his example, he says it would take to long to give the succession of all these ancient Apostolically founded Churches he uses Rome and gives Romes succession as his argument. This is not “Papal Supremacy.”

ZP

 

[annad347]

But you won’t find a picture of the pope anywhere (in Lutheran church)

that’s okay, I have Google.

Frankly, Lutheranism would do well to reference her more for the incredible role model she is.

I’m sure they respect her as I do for who she is and what she did… but don’t have the need to pray to her for prayers that will lead us to Jesus… as I do.

 

[steve-b]

ziapueblo:

This gives the context of his usage of the Church of Rome in your quote and the context clearly shows he didn’t do so to prove “Papal Supremacy” but because at this time in history it was the Church in the capital city of the Empire and the Church known by all.

ZP

Actually without mentioning keys , Iranaeus does put forth a type of key passing, from all the apostles, to all their successors, as your posted quote suggests.

Actually,

Irenaeus point, gives the succession of bishops, by name, one at a time, from Peter in Rome. where Irenaeus mentions 12 bishops down to his day, and gives a short bio for many of them. Bk 3 ch 3 vv2-3 demonstrating why the Church of Rome has preeminent authority over ALL the Church.

There is also this

read (paragraph 4)

 

[MichaelP3]

I’ll pass on reading his work .

That is unfortunate as you would have related so much to him being a man who properly referenced everything he wrote.

Maybe you should face your fears and take a peek. One can say what they want, it stays an academic piece of work and wait for it… properly referenced. And yet still not just accepted. Makes you think doesn’t it?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I’ll pass on reading his work .

That is unfortunate as you would have related so much to him being a man who properly referenced everything he wrote.

Maybe you should face your fears and take a peek. One can say what they want, it stays an academic piece of work and wait for it… properly referenced. And yet still not just accepted. Makes you think doesn’t it?

When Irenaeus wrote the following Bk 3 ch 3 vv2-3 Check out paragraph #4

See what Irenaeus passes on RE; Heretics and "first born of Satan" as to how Bp Polycarp used it

 

[MichaelP3]

I didn’t expect anything else from you Steve-b. But maybe we will have other readers on here that will broaden their views and get “unstuck”. Especially when they read properly referenced material. You should get that!

 

[steve-b]

I didn’t expect anything else from you Steve-b. But maybe we will have other readers on here that will broaden their views and get “unstuck”. Especially when they read properly referenced material. You should get that!

As Irenaeus showed, using that example, and story, obviously passed onto him by Polycarp, that ALL people make choices. Especially concerning the accepting or avoidance of error(s). Actions have consequences

 

[mcq72]

the greatest

You say this of Rome…Iranaeus says the very great.

 

[steve-b]

Apparently not all Catholics share your views (of not reading his work at least):

It doesn’t change who Calvin was.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

the greatest

You say this of Rome…Iranaeus says the very great.

Re: Preeminent:

Are we going to argue over Synonyms T?

• arch,
• big,
• capital,
• cardinal,
• central,
• chief,
• dominant,
• first,
• foremost,
• grand,
  ✓great,
  ✓ greatest,
• highest,
  etc etc etc