The Universal Church

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steve-b said:
Is schism now, no big deal anymore? Just forget about it? Do NOTHING about it? Say nothing about it?
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Are you saying it is better to evangelize the Orthodox, rather than, as Pope Francis suggests, “be open, be a friend” and not make efforts to convert them to Catholicism?
 
Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
Is schism now, no big deal anymore? Just forget about it? Do NOTHING about it? Say nothing about it?
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Are you saying it is better to evangelize the Orthodox, rather than, as Pope Francis suggests, “be open, be a friend” and not make efforts to convert them to Catholicism?
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Show me (Proterly referenced 🙂) where Pope Francis approves now of schism, or dismisses it altogether.
 
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steve-b said:
Show me (Proterly referenced 🙂) where Pope Francis approves now of schism, or dismisses it altogether.
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No thanks.

I presume this means you feel free to ignore the Pope and continue to try to convert the Orthodox?
 
steve-b said:
Is schism NOW, in our day and age, any different than schism has always been represented and described in scripture and Tradition?
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Yes. What is presented in scripture as schism did not deal with papacy issues, and even some of our other dividing issues (Mariology, real presence, for example). Scripture dealt with personal sin issues and Judaizing and following apostolic teaching in general. No where do we see mention of folks not bowing to Peter specifically as head of church. No where in Acts or epistles. No where do we see in scripture adherence to bishop of Rome as supreme specifically in epistles.

Now tradition is another matter. Even here we do not see immediate specific bowing to Rome either. In fact there were several controversies where such doctrine could have been employed against schismatics but was not.However no one is denying that such development of CC papacy would occur. As part of that came the doctrine that such tradition went from a small t to a capital T, that indeed such teaching was as inspired as any apostolic writing.

No where do we hear the term “separated brethren”. The schismatics are referred to as “wolves” or never “a part of us”, as in never being or remaining as Christians.
 
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Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
Show me (Proterly referenced 🙂) where Pope Francis approves now of schism, or dismisses it altogether.
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No thanks.

I presume this means you feel free to ignore the Pope and continue to try to convert the Orthodox?
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I presume this means you avoid showing (properly referenced) where the pope no longer believes schism is a problem
 
As soon as you indicate your agreement with His Holiness that Catholics should not attempt to convert their brothers and sisters in Christ in the Orthodox Church, then we can talk about the Pope’s view of schism.
 
steve-b said:
Who set up the office of Peter?
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Jesus, as an apostle and presbyter. Same office as other apostles.
steve-b said:
Who gave Peter the keys to the kingdom?
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Jesus. There is giving of similar powers to rest of apostles later on (Matt18:18), but Peter had many firsts as leader.
steve-b said:
What is the purpose of the keys?
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well power and authority, as key of David, or Jesus having keys of death and hades or the key of knowledge for entering kingdom (Luke 11:52)

so keys can open and keys can bind. The Roman world was turned upside down not by Peter’s jurisdictional bindings but more specifically by presenting the gospel with binding authority. Peter was the first to preach the gospel at Pentecost Sunday, he was the first to preach to Gentiles. Those specific “first” keys are no longer needed but the authority of his gospel, the apostle’s gospel , the Lord’s gospel continues with power and authority, setting captives free. The gates of hell have not prevailed,and not even the death of our Lord, and most of his apostles, and many successors have stopped the gospel being presented by ecclesia. His truth is marching on. The bride is being furnished. As you rightly say Jesus established this and it is not going away.
 
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mcq72 said:
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steve-b:
Is schism NOW, in our day and age, any different than schism has always been represented and described in scripture and Tradition?
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Yes. What is presented in scripture as schism did not deal with papacy issues, and even some of our other dividing issues (Mariology, real presence, for example). Scripture dealt with personal sin issues and Judaizing and following apostolic teaching in general. No where do we see mention of folks not bowing to Peter specifically as head of church. No where. No where do we see in scripture adherence to bishop of Rome as supreme specifically.
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“Bible alone” Christian traditions, are ALL man made traditions, yes man made traditions, ALL heresies beginning in the 16th century

AND

Re: scripture they claim to follow…ALONE

The argument the apostles were having in the upper room, on the night of the Last Supper, was all about authority. Who among the apostles is the greatest. One could ask, after 3 yrs of public ministry, how is it the apostles were so clueless to the answer?

One can’t underestimate the power of Satan sifting. Yet everybody who sins, does. Which means EVERYBODY on the planet who sins, DID underestimate the power of Satan.

AND

When one remains in sin, it shows how persistant Satan is to keep one stuck in sin.
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mcq72:
Now tradition is another matter. Even here we do not see immediate specific bowing to Rome either.

[snip for space]
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All historical arguments used by heretics, and argued against by the scriptures, the ECF’s , and the ongoing teaching office of the Church
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mcq72:
No where do we hear the term “separated brethren”. The schismatics are referred to as “wolves” or never “a part of us”, as in never being or remaining as Christians.
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Re: terms
Show me where Trinity appears in scripture. The concept is there the word is NOT.

As far as separated brethren is concerned biblically speaking

when “separated brethren” is used., what makes one a brother in the first place?

valid Baptism

can people undo the meaning of that sacrament in their actions? YES

They can leave or be outside the family.

Are they still mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, etc to members in the family sacramentally speaking? YES

The definition of heresy

2089 from the CCC
Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Since

some have left, some leave, some born outside, etc, point being, one can find themself separate/separated from the family.

So

What does scripture say about THAT?

It doesn’t say a son/daughter/etc is no longer a son/daughter etc to the original family. But it DOES show the consequences if they don’t return

AND to your other point

Once Jesus corrected His apostles for arguing over who among THEM was the greaest…BTW Jesus said it is Simon/Peter,

THEN

That dynamic of governance is to continue…
 
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Isaac14 said:
As soon as you indicate your agreement with His Holiness that Catholics should not attempt to convert their brothers and sisters in Christ in the Orthodox Church, then we can talk about the Pope’s view of schism.
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The pope NEVER negates his role as leader of the entire Church.
 
mcq72 said:
Now tradition is another matter. Even here we do not see immediate specific bowing to Rome either.
[snip for space]
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All historical arguments used by heretics, and argued against by the scriptures, the ECF’s , and the ongoing teaching office of the Church
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Re the ECFs, St. John Chrysostom in his treatise On the Priesthood, Book 1, ch. 2:

For what purpose did He shed His blood? It was that He might win these sheep which He entrusted to Peter and his successors. Naturally then did Christ say, “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord shall make ruler over His household.” Again, the words are those of one who is in doubt, yet the speaker did not utter them in doubt, but just as He asked Peter whether he loved Him, not from any need to learn the affection of the disciple, but from a desire to show the exceeding depth of his own love: so now also when He says, “Who then is the faithful and wise servant?” he speaks not as being ignorant who is faithful and wise, but as desiring to set forth the rarity of such a character, and the greatness of this office. Observe at any rate how great the reward is–" He will appoint him," he says, "ruler over all his goods."
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mcq72 said:
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steve-b:
Who set up the office of Peter?
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Jesus, as an apostle and presbyter. Same office as other apostles.
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Yet

why did Jesus give one apostle Simon/Peter the keys of the kingdom?
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mcq72:
There is giving of similar powers to rest of apostles later on (Matt18:18), but Peter had many firsts as leader.
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Ahhh

So you see that Peter is the leader. We’re getting somewhere
steve-b said:
What is the purpose of the keys?
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mcq72:
well power and authority, as key of David, or Jesus having keys of death and hades or the key of knowledge for entering kingdom (Luke 11:52)

so keys can open and keys can bind.
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🙂 AND?
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mcq72:
Those specific “first” keys are no longer needed but the authority of his gospel, the apostle’s gospel , the Lord’s gospel continues with power and authority, setting captives free. The gates of hell have not prevailed, and not even the death of our Lord, and most of his apostles, and many successors have stopped the gospel being presented by ecclesia…
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Is 22:
Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, …17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 In that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the Lord has spoken.”

IOW
Jesus In [MT] gave Peter the keys to His kingdom.
Peter was made the leader, the others got fired.

AND

Like Jesus, Peter was also crucified.

And NOTE:

Only One person in both cases, [Is, & Mt] got the keys.
 
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Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
The pope NEVER negates his role as leader of the entire Church.
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Could you just answer my question: is it acceptable for Catholics to try to convert the Orthodox? The Pope doesn’t seem to think so.
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It is NOT acceptable for a Catholic to ignore schism for ANYONE. EVERYONE is to be evangelized according to the Church . [CCC 846-48 ],

So

Here’s a direct answer to your question. How Eastern Orthodox Christians Can Be Saved | Catholic Answers
 
steve-b said:
Is the pope going to go against the CCC?

You apparently misunderstand the pope
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Is my quotation from the Pope wrong wherein he says not to convert the Orthodox because they are brothers and sisters in Christ?
 
Isaac14 said:
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steve-b:
Yep they got fired
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I could have sworn they all remained Apostles and went on to evangelize, found churches, bind and loose, and ultimately be martyred. Apparently I need to reread my Bible…
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Good grief

Jesus is instituting His Church… A new idea. A new society. He gives Peter the keys, to His Church. THAT is the top position of authority. Anyone thinking they were in charge, just found out they weren’t… The Church is what is coming. Peter is now in charge, the holder of the keys. The apostles in unity with Peter make up the authority of the Church. Peter is the leader over everyone…
 
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