The Universe did not have an absolute begining?

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meinfinitist said:
Is there anything physical that is not eternal?
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Tell me something physical that is eternal…

Particles interact, change, etc…Matter and energy are always ‘trasforming’ so they are not eternal.

One might claim the laws of physics are ‘eternal’… the problem is that the laws of physics exist in so far as the material and physical world exists. They are the relation bwtween objects, not objects in their own right.

One could claim that the universe/multiverse is eternal as a whole.

Well we know the universe is not eternal… and we do not know if a multiverse even exists, let alone its physical properties in a tested theory.
 
Particles and energy change. They do not go away. They are eternal,
as is the universe eternal.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The following statement was made by Apologist Trent Horn on the C.A. Apologetics Blog (catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/cave-diving-and-apologetics ), on April 24 :

" They ( Catholics ) may not even know that the Church does not require belief that the universe began, only that it was created (God could have created an eternal universe). "

In my 74 years as a Catholic ( educated in Catholic institutions through College ) I have never heard this. And in the CCC, paragraph 327 we read, " 327 The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body. ( Fourth Laturen Council ). "

So how does Trent justify the assertion that Catholics are not required to believe that the universe had an absolute beginning in time ? This is something entirely new to me. Even St. Thomas taught that Catholics believe, on Faith, that the universe had an absolute beginning in time.

Who is right ? May Catholics actually hold either position, that the universe existed eternally or that it had an absolute beginning in time ?

Linus2nd
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While it may be logically contradictory to create an eternal universe I see nothing theologically contradictory with the idea that God created an eternal universe. It becomes a problem if you take “from the beginning of time” literally, instead of reading it within the context of describing Gods creative sovereignty over the world. The fact still remains that Gods creative act is required in-order to actualise and sustains every physical event in existence; thus it is still creation ex nihilo even if the universe really was eternal; it still has a beginning of sorts insofar as every actualisation of its being is dependent on God. From a God’s-eye-veiw (a timeless perspective) the eternal universe begins to exist and continues to exist (along with every event that will ever be) simultaneously with Gods creative act. That is a beginning, just not a temporal beginning.

Is there really any dogmatic Catholic teaching that clearly demands that we believe in a universe that has a temporal beginning. If so, how does that reflect on our current knowledge that time is a dimension of the universe; the universe begins with time, not in time.

Or perhaps the writer was using the idea of a beginning in time as an example to illustrate the universe as having an ontological contingency on Gods creative act. To speak of a “beginning” is simply a way of describing creations ontological relationship with GOD; for lack of a better word.
 
meinfinitist said:
Particles and energy change. They do not go away. They are eternal,
as is the universe eternal.
Click to expand...
You are making an unjustified metaphysical statement and touting it as science. If you wish to make a scientific statement, then you will be forced to acknowledge that when a scientist says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, they mean only the fact that nothing physical can create or destroy energy; since they are only dealing with that which is physically measurable and therefore cannot account for every conceivable possibility. There maybe realities that transcend the physical, not only in nature but also in power. To make the further claim that it is logically impossible for any conceivable thing to destroy or create energy is to make a metaphysical statement that is not backed up by scientific evidence and any one who truly understands the scientific method, and the epistemology involved, would know that it cannot be.
 
meinfinitist said:
Particles and energy change. They do not go away. They are eternal,
as is the universe eternal.
Click to expand...
From a philosophical and theological standpoint, ‘eternal’ does not mean ‘unending.’ ‘Eternal’ means ‘having no extension in time or space.’ It also means ‘possessing the totality of one’s existence not as a series but as a totality.’ In that sense only a spiritual being such as God can be eternal. He stands outside of time, while material things exist within time, having extension both in time and in space.
 
“He stands outside of time.”
I need a good, clear, explanation of this.
 
meinfinitist said:
“He stands outside of time.”
I need a good, clear, explanation of this.
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I think you may be working from a wholly materialistic perspective—that is, the assumption that nothing exists except that which is composed of matter and energy and is composed of parts and extended in time and space.

I would recommend a basic course in Aristotelian metaphysics or for a easy read, try Frank J. Sheed’s short book, “Theology for Beginners,” or another F. J. Sheed book “Theology and Sanity.”

Matter and energy by their nature must be extended in space and in time, because they occupy space, and they change. If God is composed of matter he cannot be God, since he would be subject to change.
 
If God is not composed of matter how can he communicate with you?
 
meinfinitist said:
If God is not composed of matter how can he communicate with you?
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God is an infinite spirit. He can, and does affect matter if He chooses to do so. But that said, one most commonly communicates with God through prayer. It’s not as though we telephone each other once a day.
 
Do you mean it’s only a mental exchange?
If not, can you be specific about other clear exchanges.
 
meinfinitist said:
Do you mean it’s only a mental exchange?
If not, can you be specific about other clear exchanges.
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No, I can’t. If you are speaking of personal experiences, you will have to rely on the subjective. But it’s also worth a bit of introspection to try to decide if humans might have a non-material component which accounts for the sense of self, the sense of a single entity who can self refer as “I” throughout life even though every molecule in our body might have changed, and which might account for our abilities of mind and will.

But that’s a little much for discussing on an internet forum. Try Frank Sheed or some other resources.
 
Linux said:
While it may be logically contradictory to create an eternal universe I see nothing theologically contradictory with the idea that God created an eternal universe. It becomes a problem if you take “from the beginning of time” literally, instead of reading it within the context of describing Gods creative sovereignty over the world. The fact still remains that Gods creative act is required in-order to actualise and sustains every physical event in existence; thus it is still creation ex nihilo even if the universe really was eternal; it still has a beginning of sorts insofar as every actualisation of its being is dependent on God. From a God’s-eye-veiw (a timeless perspective) the eternal universe begins to exist and continues to exist (along with every event that will ever be) simultaneously with Gods creative act. That is a beginning, just not a temporal beginning.

Is there really any dogmatic Catholic teaching that clearly demands that we believe in a universe that has a temporal beginning. If so, how does that reflect on our current knowledge that time is a dimension of the universe; the universe begins with time, not in time.

Or perhaps the writer was using the idea of a beginning in time as an example to illustrate the universe as having an ontological contingency on Gods creative act. To speak of a “beginning” is simply a way of describing creations ontological relationship with GOD; for lack of a better word.
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Yes, it is defined Dogma that the universe had an absolute beginning in time, at which God created the universe ex nihil. So yes, we are required by our Catholic faith to believe firmly, heart and mind, that the universe had an absolute beginning in time.

That is what is meant by : " And in the CCC, paragraph 327 we read, " 327 The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body. ( Fourth Laturen Council ). "

Linus2nd
 
Since it’s been 800 years should the Sixth Lateren Council be held for an update of
clarrification?
Such as compelling the Jews.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Yes, it is defined Dogma that the universe had an absolute beginning in time, at which God created the universe ex nihil. So yes, we are required by our Catholic faith to believe firmly, heart and mind, that the universe had an absolute beginning in time.

That is what is meant by : " And in the CCC, paragraph 327 we read, " 327 The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body. ( Fourth Laturen Council ). "

Linus2nd
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Have you addressed any of the things i said? You are just asserting your position.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Yes, it is defined Dogma that the universe had an absolute beginning in time, at which God created the universe ex nihil. So yes, we are required by our Catholic faith to believe firmly, heart and mind, that the universe had an absolute beginning in time.

That is what is meant by : " And in the CCC, paragraph 327 we read, " 327 The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body. ( Fourth Laturen Council ). "

Linus2nd
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I thought I answered the essential question. This is the question you asked : " Is there really any dogmatic Catholic teaching that clearly demands that we believe in a universe that has a temporal beginning. If so, how does that reflect on our current knowledge that time is a dimension of the universe; the universe begins with time, not in time. "

I gave you the Dogmatic teaching. What else do you want? Linus2nd
 
Ismael said:
Tell me something physical that is eternal…

Particles interact, change, etc…Matter and energy are always ‘trasforming’ so they are not eternal.

One might claim the laws of physics are ‘eternal’… the problem is that the laws of physics exist in so far as the material and physical world exists. They are the relation bwtween objects, not objects in their own right.

One could claim that the universe/multiverse is eternal as a whole.

Well we know the universe is not eternal… and we do not know if a multiverse even exists, let alone its physical properties in a tested theory.
Click to expand...
This is called the law of conservation of energy. ‘Matter can neither be created, nor destroyed.’ But can be converted.
 
“well we know the universe is not eternal”

My thinking says it is.
 
"In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the eartha— 2 and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters—b 3Then God said: Let there be light, and there was light.c 4God saw that the light was good. God then separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Evening came, and morning followed—the first day." ** Genesis 1

If the “first day” is not an absolute beginning, what is it? :confused:
 
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