The Universe did not have an absolute begining?

[meinfinitist]

you betcha
masturbation is not a sin
you betcha

 

[inocente]

inocente

The writer of Genesis was not working from a scientific manual. You might at least concede that.

That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

You’re the one who was trying to make out that Genesis is an accurate portrait of the big bang. I’m glad you now see that revelation isn’t science and science isn’t revelation. Welcome.

 

[inocente]

I can certainly agree with that!

However, ngill’s statement seemed to create a false dichotomy: either claim that the Bible is scientifically true, or claim that the Bible is not divinely inspired and completely true. That dichotomy fails. Even if the Bible isn’t trying to be a science book, it is still completely true! It’s truth comes from the message that God was trying to give humanity; that message isn’t necessarily always one of science, or of historicity – sometimes, yes, but not in every book, chapter, and verse – but it always tells the ‘truth’.

That’s all I was trying to get at (even if Charlemagne, too, was being a little sloppy with his use of the word ‘truth’ and therefore backing down from using it)…!

There are both atheists and believers who think science is the only standard for truth. The atheists in that camp would have us believe the bible is false because it’s not scientific while the believers in that camp completely miss the truth by trying to make the bible scientific. Imho.

 

[meinfinitist]

The man cuts wood for relaxation.
The man cuts wood for work.
Both are true and false depending on interpretation.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

You’re the one who was trying to make out that Genesis is an accurate portrait of the big bang.

This is deliberately false. Please cite where I said Genesis is an ACCURATE portrait of the BB.

What I gave you was a single sentence metaphor from Genesis. “Let there be light.” Then I gave you Carl Sagan’s version of the Big Bang. Draw your own conclusion.

Carl Sagan in* Cosmos*, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

Genesis, 1200 B.C. : “In the beginning God said: ‘Let there be light.’”

As astronomer Robert Jastrow pointed out in God and the Astronomers.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

 

[inocente]

inocente

You’re the one who was trying to make out that Genesis is an accurate portrait of the big bang.

This is deliberately false. Please cite where I said Genesis is an ACCURATE portrait of the BB.

What I gave you was a single sentence metaphor from Genesis. “Let there be light.” Then I gave you Carl Sagan’s version of the Big Bang. Draw your own conclusion.

Carl Sagan in* Cosmos*, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

Genesis, 1200 B.C. : “In the beginning God said: ‘Let there be light.’”

As astronomer Robert Jastrow pointed out in God and the Astronomers.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

So by putting those quotes together you were not implying that Genesis 1 is an accurate portrait of the big bang???

Were you implying that Genesis 1 is nothing like an accurate portrait of the big bang? Or that Genesis 1 has nothing whatsoever to do with the big bang???

Or did you have no intent to imply anything and just chose the quotes at random?

Or … ??? … little help here.

 

[Gorgias]

There are both atheists and believers who think science is the only standard for truth.

And they would be wrong, unless they modified their statement to deal with the difference between empirically verifiable observations of the physical universe and things that don’t belong to that class.

(Of course, if they were strict empiricists, I would understand their stance. And I would hope that they would understand the internal consistency of ours, even if they didn’t hold to our premises.)

The atheists in that camp would have us believe the bible is false because it’s not scientific while the believers in that camp completely miss the truth by trying to make the bible scientific. Imho.

Hmm… it’s my experience that this isn’t what the ‘believers in that camp’ are all about. Rather than thinking that science is the only standard, they tend to think that science is a complementary standard, and everything in Scripture is also verifiable by means of that standard. I would disagree, of course, but that is what I see them claiming…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

**Or … ??? … little help here. **

Read the quotes, use your imagination, and draw your own conclusion.

Einstein ignored the implications of his own theory (the Big Bang) because he believed the universe was eternal.

Lemaitre, who knew his Genesis, had no such bias. Ergo, Lemaitre corrected Einstein’s math, and eventually Einstein made the necessary concession regarding the Big Bang. A case of the triumph of religion and science working together to get the truth.

“True science to an ever-increasing degree discovers God as though God were waiting behind each closed door opened by science.” Pope Pius XII

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” Werner Heisenberg

“The Holy Bible and the phenomenon of nature proceed alike from the divine Word.” Galileo Galilei

“The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.” Louis Pasteur

 

[meinfinitist]

1:20 And then God said, “Let the waters produce animals with a living soul, and flying creatures above the earth, under the firmament of heaven.”

 

[matt1985]

I still think string theory leaves plenty of room open for a theistic God. Other dimensions and other universes are probably where heaven and hell are located.There may be a universe that is Heavin, and a universe of fiery hell.

 

[meinfinitist]

A forum is good.
I’m learning every day.
What i’m looking for now is how the Bible is attributed to God.
thank you all

 

[Gorgias]

1:20 And then God said, “Let the waters produce animals with a living soul, and flying creatures above the earth, under the firmament of heaven.”

“with a living soul”? What translation of the Bible are you reading??? This isn’t a very good translation – at the very least, it’s not a standard translation! I’d advise you to stick to a version with a Catholic imprimatur, such as the New American Bible or the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition.

In the NAB, Genesis 1:20 reads: “Then God said: Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky.”

In the RSV-CE, it’s “And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.’”

 

[meinfinitist]

NAB 6:4
At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven
had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the of old,
the men of renown.
6:5
When the LORD saw how great was man’s wickedness on earth, and how no desire that
his heart conceived was ever anything but evil,
6:6
he regretted that he had man on earth, and his heart was grieved.
6:7
So the LORD said: “I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not
only the men, but also the beast and creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am
sorry I made them.”

 

[meinfinitist]

More simply asked:
Bible from God criteria ?

20131310000001

 

[Ignatius]

No beginning, no end, just change.

Particles and energy change. They do not go away. They are eternal,

as is the universe eternal.

Back on the thread subject topic and to the point of these two posts:
Actually, they are not eternal. The science indicates that all that is had a beginning 13.7 Billion years ago. There is no scientific evidence that anything existed prior to that.

This has been pointed out several times. Why are you afraid to address this? Do you hae any scientific evidence to the contrary?

 

[meinfinitist]

“There is no scientific evidence that anything existed prior to that.”
I assume you include your God, because you said scientific evidence.

Humor me for a couple of minutes.

Make five or six or seven or more circles on a piece of paper, about the size of various coins.
We’ll pick any one of those to be our big bang. If your paper is big enough make an infinity of circles.
As this big bang expands it expands into the real universe, the other circles are also expanding.
These expanding circles are full of galaxies and black holes. The black holes are what we don’t know too much about yet.
Now those other circles are other big bangs, they have galaxies and black holes, they are
expanding.
Eventually with the expansion of the big bangs various clusters of black holes come together
in the vast expanses of space.
They compress and compress until they exlode in a new big bang.
This is the pulsating big bangs.
An infinity of pulsating big bangs.
We are expanding into something.
Now tell me more about the direct connection of your God to the Bible.

 

[Gorgias]

Now tell me more about the direct connection of your God to the Bible.

As soon as you tell us about the scientific evidence for your little story, there.

Physicists make conjectures about cosmology, and some of those stories sound like what you’ve just written. But, and this is the key point, they’re just guesses about things that might be possible! They’re not supported by evidence, and they’re not observable!

So, what we have here is an empirical discipline making statements about non-observable notions. That’s a problem. You’re free to believe that it’s possible – but don’t try to sell it as scientific fact…

 

[meinfinitist]

mmmm
Bible from God criteria ?

My story doesn’t include child abuse.

 

[meinfinitist]

As soon as you tell us about the scientific evidence for your little story, there.

Physicists make conjectures about cosmology, and some of those stories sound like what you’ve just written. But, and this is the key point, they’re just guesses about things that might be possible! They’re not supported by evidence, and they’re not observable!

So, what we have here is an empirical discipline making statements about non-observable notions. That’s a problem. You’re free to believe that it’s possible – but don’t try to sell it as scientific fact…

You are correct, i cannot give you scientific evidence for my little story.
They are just guesses about things that might be possible.
I think the Bible is just guesses about things that might be possible.

Since you have no scientific evidence that the Bible came from God, you have to stop
telling young innocent children that if they perform the non violent act of masturbation,
that they will burn in the fires of a place called hell,for eternity. Unless.
Unless they perform a ritual of secretely telling an adult in a position of power of their
transgression. That is child abuse. Since you have no evidence that the Bible came
from God.

20131320000001

 

[Linux]

Back on the thread subject topic and to the point of these two posts:
Actually, they are not eternal. The science indicates that all that is had a beginning 13.7 Billion years ago. There is no scientific evidence that anything existed prior to that.

This has been pointed out several times. Why are you afraid to address this? Do you hae any scientific evidence to the contrary?

As far as your opponent is concerned, the idea that energy cannot be created or destroyed is a metaphysical absolute and thus does not require scientific evidence. Its best that you demand what his or her metaphysical grounds are for thinking that nothing can create or destroy energy. If he or she says science said this or science said that, you should point out that the scientific method does not deal in metaphysical absolutes and that scientific statements insofar as they are grounded in methodological naturalism are limited to the context of physical beings and not reality as an general act. Therefore your opponent cannot argue on a scientific bases that it is logically impossible for energy to not exist, since science as a matter of method assumes that only physical things exist, and therefore his reasoning is reduced to a mere circular argument, since you cannot infer the eternity of energy on the bases of method alone. Science claims, in the context of physical things alone, energy is neither created or destroyed.