The Universe is not eternal - Stephen Hawking

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afungusamongus

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It seems that for a while now the people who want to reject the Cosmological argument for Gods existence had two outs for their rejection. Either hold to a eternal universe or believe that things can come into being uncaused.

Seems like one of those objections has now been dis-proven by science. Atheist where sure that the 20th century would bring us to a point where we could once and for all dismiss these primitive fantasies.

That would have been true except for the curious fact that scientist keep on discovering evidence for Christianity. Weird how Mr. Hawkings has inadvertently done so much to aid the Christian message.

DISCUSS!
 
Unfortunately, people treat Mr. Hawking as though anything he says must be correct. We forget that while he is an unbelievable intelligent man and has done much to further the world of Physics, he has been wrong on many occasions.

Nevertheless, if you take many of his thoughts and follow them through they can be used to prove the existence of God. Just as Einstein was unable to fully accept the consequences of his equations, the same can be said for some of Hawkings.
 
As theology is the study of God, science is the study of God’s works. Trying to use science to disprove the existance of God is like trying to use bear tracks to prove that bears don’t exist!
 
I don’t think this shows the universe isn’t eternal 🙂 It just depends on what you mean by eternal.

For instance, if ‘X is eternal’ just means at every single point in time, X exists, then the universe is eternal.

This is because on any big bang model, time ‘begins’ to exist when the universe does. Therefore, at every single point in time, the universe exists.
 
Unfortunately for science thinkers like Hawking can only speculate on what has been revealled through scientific research and discovery using brains that are inadequate to comphrehend the things outside our ability to comphrehend or imagine.

The idea that an intelligence can exist outside time and space isn’t easy and if we limit that by the rules of science, impossible.
 
I don’t think this shows the universe isn’t eternal It just depends on what you mean by eternal.
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For instance, if ‘X is eternal’ just means at every single point in time, X exists, then the universe is eternal.
Click to expand...
This is because on any big bang model, time ‘begins’ to exist when the universe does. Therefore, at every single point in time, the universe exists.
Click to expand...
Maybe we should rename the thread he universe has not always existed - Stephen Hawking:shrug:
 
Polycarp1 said:
As theology is the study of God, science is the study of God’s works. Trying to use science to disprove the existance of God is like trying to use bear tracks to prove that bears don’t exist!
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Very interesting analogy!

I have always believed that science and theology / religion are compatible and interrelated. The ability to be able to comprehend some of the miracles and wonders around us is in and of itself proof that we have indeed been created in God’s image and likeness, given the ability to understand creation at this level and in this way (as opposed to simply experiencing it at some lower level of cognition).

As for this specific theory, it surprises me not that a scientist would assert that the universe was not eternal. To think that both God and his creation co-existed eternally is not logical, and also suggests in some way that the universe (as we know it) represents the entirety of God’s creation. How could we possibly know that? There may be some aspects of God’s creation that we know absolutely nothing about …
 
God said to Moses" I AM WHO AM!" and then when asked by Moses who shall I say sent me God replied “HE WHO IS”.

God has thus descibed Himself to a being very limited in intellect and cognitive ability. (not to bad mouth Moses I mean all of humankind)

The statement “I AM WHO AM” could only be spoken by one who is eternal or existing outside of what we call time. Time is merely a measured sequence of events that man has devised to better understand and control his environment.
 
We also have a hard time thinking outside of the limits of “space”. The idea that there could be no universe, not a vacumn or a void because a vacumn or a void are still something in that we can’t comphrehend them without limits. That something could exist outside of the limits of space is not reasonable if we consider it merely from the point of view of science.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
afungusamongus said:
Maybe we should rename the thread he universe has not always existed - Stephen Hawking:shrug:
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But, since there is no time before the universe exists what’s the big the deal? The universe’s having not always existed seems problematic only if there was a time before the universe existed, in which case we’d rightly inquire why it began. But, there was no such time. It’s just always existed.
 
Perplexity said:
I don’t think this shows the universe isn’t eternal 🙂 It just depends on what you mean by eternal.

For instance, if ‘X is eternal’ just means at every single point in time, X exists, then the universe is eternal.

This is because on any big bang model, time ‘begins’ to exist when the universe does. Therefore, at every single point in time, the universe exists.
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Perplexed:

That’s not quite true. It was Arvin Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin who discovered that every inflationary model universe, and/or multiverse, has a beginning. That indicated an “edge” of time. Prior to this edge of time, there is neither time, nor mobile being, i.e., time did not exist (even in its imperfect manner - as a correlate of motion).

The word, “eternal,” is often played around with and used equivocally (as you’ve just shown us). A better word to use is, “infinite.” People can’t play as many word games with “infinite.” Now, find, for example, “infinite duration,” on your map of time in an extant universe. 😉

God bless,
jd
 
Perplexity said:
I don’t think this shows the universe isn’t eternal 🙂 It just depends on what you mean by eternal.

For instance, if ‘X is eternal’ just means at every single point in time, X exists, then the universe is eternal.

This is because on any big bang model, time ‘begins’ to exist when the universe does. Therefore, at every single point in time, the universe exists.
Click to expand...
Now, Perplexity, surely you know that eternal means “without beginning or end.”
You can’t just go making up new definitions for words to make them fit an argument. 😛
 
prodigalson2011 said:
Now, Perplexity, surely you know that eternal means “without beginning or end.”
You can’t just go making up new definitions for words to make them fit an argument. 😛
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Check out the new thread I’ve started, there I use a definition of ‘eternal’ employed by a famous Thomist. I’m not making anything up 😛
 
Perplexity said:
But, since there is no time before the universe exists what’s the big the deal? The universe’s having not always existed seems problematic only if there was a time before the universe existed, in which case we’d rightly inquire why it began. But, there was no such time. It’s just always existed.
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But there was a point when the universe didn’t exist. This is just as good a reason to ask why it exists. Word games, Perplexity. To say that anything has always existed is at best hyperbole and at worst a fallacy.
 
afungusamongus said:
Maybe we should rename the thread he universe has not always existed - Stephen Hawking:shrug:
Click to expand...
The thread name is fine. The question should be, what is meant by, “the universe is eternal?” It is Catholic to think of the universe being “eternal,” although not in the overall form we currently see (at least for a period). Entropy will have its way, and the universe may freeze. But, at the end of man, the universe is to be restored - as we will, prayerfully.

Hawking has disheartening disabilities, and remarkable abilities. Not a good place to be if one is hoping to be an early-blooming theist. Perhaps he will become a late-blooming theist! His tribulations are an indication that God has something good He is preparing for him, I think.

God bless,
jd
 
I don’t doubt that when God said “Let there be light” that there was a big bang!
 
Polycarp1 said:
As theology is the study of God, science is the study of God’s works. Trying to use science to disprove the existance of God is like trying to use bear tracks to prove that bears don’t exist!
Click to expand...
I really like that! I personally try not to stray into such arguments but I just simply haven’t the ability to argue or have such a discussion. Tends to go over my head. But I very much like how you put that. Thank you.
 
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