The Unknown Christianity

[dmelosi]

Real life day to day is our spiritual journey. It is our life that we commit to love that is the path of the Lord.

Anyone can listen to the voice of the Lord as this voice is in us all telling us to love everyone and to do the best we can for all people.

Of course their are people who preach for their own benefit. God knows who is true and who is false. Our job is to do the will of God in our lives.

Following God is not arrogance. It is true submission.

Not sure why you say following God is not arrogance, that never entered our discussion.

I agree that God knows who is true and who is false. The statement I made was for us on earth, do you think that all humans know who is true and who is false? Muslims do not listen to the Holy Spirit, are they condemned in your mind? What about athiests? Are they condemned?

 

[Seeker100]

Not sure why you say following God is not arrogance, that never entered our discussion.

I agree that God knows who is true and who is false. The statement I made was for us on earth, do you think that all humans know who is true and who is false? Muslims do not listen to the Holy Spirit, are they condemned in your mind? What about athiests? Are they condemned?

These issues I do not mind talking about in another thread but you are getting off topic. God is judge. He is just and He will judge as to what each person knows and understands. Much is required of whom it is given.

The purpose of my thread in talking about the unknown Christianity is to talk about the path of serving Jesus in everyone each person meets.

 

[dmelosi]

These issues I do not mind talking about in another thread but you are getting off topic. God is judge. He is just and He will judge as to what each person knows and understands. Much is required of whom it is given.

The purpose of my thread in talking about the unknown Christianity is to talk about the path of serving Jesus in everyone each person meets.

That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone without a foundation will go their own path. Right and wrong become very subjective.

 

[Seeker100]

That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone without a foundation will go their own path. Right and wrong become very subjective.

God is Love. The Holy Ghost is the most secure foundation in all eternity. Through Him we can serve Jesus in everyone we meet. By doing so we give them love which is Christ Himself.

 

[dmelosi]

God is Love. The Holy Ghost is the most secure foundation in all eternity. Through Him we can serve Jesus in everyone we meet. By doing so we give them love which is Christ Himself.

This conversation is going in a circle. I say something, you change what I said, then you start over.

 

[Seeker100]

This conversation is going in a circle. I say something, you change what I said, then you start over.

I am trying to keep the thread on track about serving Jesus in everyone.

 

[dmelosi]

I am trying to keep the thread on track about serving Jesus in everyone.

Changing the words on what someone says is not keep the thread on track, it is twisting other’s points to justify your own. Do you want examples? Or just read back.

 

[Seeker100]

Changing the words on what someone says is not keep the thread on track, it is twisting other’s points to justify your own. Do you want examples? Or just read back.

Many of your posts were vague and open to interpretation. I simply wrote my interpretation . You do not have to agree with my interpretation. I just stated how I view things.

 

[hdog]

not everyone who is “religious” is full of sight…there are many blind christians myself included

 

[chaunceygardner]

The problem with your post is that **you believe that it is either or. **

Either or what?

The term fullness of faith you hear Catholics say, is that **without a base of what is good and evil **(which we get from the doctrine, the rubrics the very things you make fun of). It is very easy to stray and twist what is really good and evil when that very definition moves with the times instead of what Jesus taught.

I highly doubt that the BASE of what is good and evil come from any doctrine. The base comes from such things as the Commandments, the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount, and the two greatest commandments as taught by Jesus. No twisting, no straying, no changing definitions.

Many doctrines are NOT what Jesus taught.

The Catholic Church is **the only Church that I know of **that teaches that only God knows what is in your heart and who will get to heaven. I come back to that fullness of faith that gives a very solid moral base.

My understanding is that the great majority of Christian faiths subscribe to that belief, as I would suspect do most of the other major religions.

Later on the same poster says that without the foundation (provided by the Church?) “right and wrong become very subjective”. I don’t think that is true, and actually one needs to realize that faith IS very subjective. I submit that Jesus WANTS it to be very subjective, for each of us. The essence of Christianity is not having every one marching in lock step to the same drum beat of doctrinal adherence. It is opening our hearts to God and feeling his presence within us. It is hearing the call of the Gospel message and responding to it; It is taking the teaching of Jesus and applying it to our relationships with the people around us. Each of us, as individuals, in our own way.

Jesus never said “you must join a church”; He never said “you must agree to my list of doctrines”. No, Jesus said we must love God with all our hearts, minds and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

And there are many, many people who can truthfully say that they follow all the doctrines, and perform all the prescribed rituals of their church, but who fail miserably in following those two basic commandments that Jesus expects to follow. They may appear to be “good” Christians on the outside, but on the inside their hearts are far from Jesus.

 

[JRKH]

Jesus came to our world so that we could have life. Jesus came into our world so that we can walk in the light if we choose to do so. Jesus came into our world so that we could serve Him in every person we meet. He came into our world so that we could meet and see Him in everyone on earth.

Unfortunately modern Christianity both Protestant and Catholic is largely oblivious to this. What a shame and what a loss. Their purpose is often totally blind.

Jesus came that we may have life. Whomsoever wants to drink, let him drink!!

Seeker,
I believe you are quite right. Far too many people are too complacent in their faith. I think that we are sometimes to much like the Jews who took pride in being decendents of Abraham and we know what Jesus said about that.
We are so content to be baptized and attend Chuch more or less regularly, but when it comes to truly “Doing the Will of the Father”, the “yea buts…” begin.
Keep holy the Lords day, “Yea but I’m tired”
Do not bear false witness, “Yea but he said thus and so…”
Love your neighbor, “Yea but he better not cut through my yard…”
etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for the reminder.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

One learns right from wrong from the Holy Ghost directly. Man’s ways should never step inbetween.

God teaches us now in our hearts as He always has. It is our choice if we listen to it. No church doctrine can ever replace the voice of the Lord.

I agree with this but then…

If no church doctrine can ever replace the voice of God, where does that leave the Holy Bible. We read the Bible for many reasons but one of the big ones is this. We read it to verify that the “voice” is indeed the Holy Spirit. For is the “Voice” in our hearts is teaching something contrary to Gods’ word, that is, contrary to the Law of Love, then that voice is not of God.

So we use the Bible, which is doctrinally accepted by every Christian Church as a guide. In addition we use the wise council of our pastors and others that we respect. We read other books by authors we respect anc so forth.

So my point is this, while we do listen for the voice of God in our hearts, we must also have a good point of reference to check our “personal revelation” against. In the Catholic Church that includes not only the Bible, but nearly 2000 years of additional teaching on various matters. Our doctrine does not get in the way of God, but rather supports Him

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Of course it is given to both the individual and the Church. One must understand however what the true Church is. The true church is the Bride of Christ. It is the universal Church of people who obey God’s voice. Members of the true Church come from all denominations. The true church is the Kingdom of God. The members of the Kingdom of God are vessels for the Holy Ghost and are His body on earth to carry out His will.

What you say is true, but then you miss the reverse corallary of this.
Truly holy people can be found in every denomination, and these holy people provide their denominations with great doctrinal works (though they may not be called such) that expound upon various issues facing their fellow Christians on their journey toward God.
Thus it is that every Christian community has, doctrinal beliefs, catachism, rules, covenents etc, to help guide the faithful. And this is as it should be, for this is what the Church is intended to do.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

It is interesting how quickly this thread got off the topic of truly Living the Christian Life.
The fact is that, if everyone who claimed to be Christian truly lived as a Christian should, in Love of God and neighbor, a great many problems in this country and in the world could have been avoided.
For one thing we wouldn’t have abortion on demand.
For another we wouldn’t have incessant commercials on TV by lawyers trying to get everyone to sue everyone else.
Jails would not be overflowing.
The major market meltdown could have been avoided because Loving people would not wish to take such chances with other peoples monies.
Even the war on terror might have been avoided if the “Colonial powers” over the many dacades past had acted more in a spirit of “Christian Brotherhood”, than in capitalistic greed.

I know that others could pick apart and argue each of the points I’ve raised, and certainly I’ve no room to talk or brag, but the fact remains that the U.S. which use to be VERY “Christian” nearly wiped out the American indian, treated poorly the blacks, the chinese, the Japanese, the mexicans and anyone else who wasn’t WASP.

Seeker is pointing out that, if we wish to be counted among the elect, we need to walk the walk in our lives. I don’t know if it really applies much to most folks here because our participation on this forum indicates that we take our faith seriously. Most of the people seeker is talking about, the nominal christian, probably wouldn’t bother with posting here.

Peace
James

 

[mfj]

So is the real topic of the OP, who, what, when, or why has christianity been stalled out?
Though there are many who labor, “the nominal” are ever the marker of some failure?

 

[Seeker100]

Either or what?

I highly doubt that the BASE of what is good and evil come from any doctrine. The base comes from such things as the Commandments, the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount, and the two greatest commandments as taught by Jesus. No twisting, no straying, no changing definitions.

Many doctrines are NOT what Jesus taught.

My understanding is that the great majority of Christian faiths subscribe to that belief, as I would suspect do most of the other major religions.

Later on the same poster says that without the foundation (provided by the Church?) “right and wrong become very subjective”. I don’t think that is true, and actually one needs to realize that faith IS very subjective. I submit that Jesus WANTS it to be very subjective, for each of us. The essence of Christianity is not having every one marching in lock step to the same drum beat of doctrinal adherence. It is opening our hearts to God and feeling his presence within us. It is hearing the call of the Gospel message and responding to it; It is taking the teaching of Jesus and applying it to our relationships with the people around us. Each of us, as individuals, in our own way.

Jesus never said “you must join a church”; He never said “you must agree to my list of doctrines”. No, Jesus said we must love God with all our hearts, minds and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

And there are many, many people who can truthfully say that they follow all the doctrines, and perform all the prescribed rituals of their church, but who fail miserably in following those two basic commandments that Jesus expects to follow. They may appear to be “good” Christians on the outside, but on the inside their hearts are far from Jesus.

Excellent excellent post! I agree with you 100%. Feeling God in our hearts and following His voice to fulfill His purpose in us, is life. Jesus asks that we, love God with all our hearts, minds and strength and love our neighbours as ourselves. This is what is pleasing to God as God is Love.

 

[Seeker100]

I agree with this but then…

If no church doctrine can ever replace the voice of God, where does that leave the Holy Bible. We read the Bible for many reasons but one of the big ones is this. We read it to verify that the “voice” is indeed the Holy Spirit. For is the “Voice” in our hearts is teaching something contrary to Gods’ word, that is, contrary to the Law of Love, then that voice is not of God.

So we use the Bible, which is doctrinally accepted by every Christian Church as a guide. In addition we use the wise council of our pastors and others that we respect. We read other books by authors we respect anc so forth.

So my point is this, while we do listen for the voice of God in our hearts, we must also have a good point of reference to check our “personal revelation” against. In the Catholic Church that includes not only the Bible, but nearly 2000 years of additional teaching on various matters. Our doctrine does not get in the way of God, but rather supports Him

Peace
James

The Voice of God or the Holy Ghost is Love. It is never in error. We must always put Love first and listen to Him.

The bible is a history and record of God come to earth as a man. The bible is true but only if interpreted properly. It can be read in so many ways so one must read it the correct way and this is with the Voice of Love in our hearts. It is God who must interpret the bible as we read it.

God is Love and God does not need a check from an outside source. Interpretations of the bible need checks. Church interpretations need checks. The Holy Spirit however needs no check. Love is eternal and the only stable thing in existance. When we make Love our God and Master we carry out the will of the Father.

 

[Seeker100]

What you say is true, but then you miss the reverse corallary of this.
Truly holy people can be found in every denomination, and these holy people provide their denominations with great doctrinal works (though they may not be called such) that expound upon various issues facing their fellow Christians on their journey toward God.
Thus it is that every Christian community has, doctrinal beliefs, catachism, rules, covenents etc, to help guide the faithful. And this is as it should be, for this is what the Church is intended to do.

Peace
James

Church and organized religion certainly have their place and can and are are sometimes definitely used to promote the Kingdom of God and followship of believers. Churches and denominations are very good as long as they do their duty to point to the Lord and point each individual to listen to the Lord. Churches and denomination however must never take the place of the Lord. The goal of any type of religious activity must always be to uplift Love as Christ is Love. It must be to direct the hearts of the followers to love God so that they can see Jesus and serve Jesus in all they meet.

 

[Seeker100]

It is interesting how quickly this thread got off the topic of truly Living the Christian Life.
The fact is that, if everyone who claimed to be Christian truly lived as a Christian should, in Love of God and neighbor, a great many problems in this country and in the world could have been avoided.
For one thing we wouldn’t have abortion on demand.
For another we wouldn’t have incessant commercials on TV by lawyers trying to get everyone to sue everyone else.
Jails would not be overflowing.
The major market meltdown could have been avoided because Loving people would not wish to take such chances with other peoples monies.
Even the war on terror might have been avoided if the “Colonial powers” over the many dacades past had acted more in a spirit of “Christian Brotherhood”, than in capitalistic greed.

I know that others could pick apart and argue each of the points I’ve raised, and certainly I’ve no room to talk or brag, but the fact remains that the U.S. which use to be VERY “Christian” nearly wiped out the American indian, treated poorly the blacks, the chinese, the Japanese, the mexicans and anyone else who wasn’t WASP.

Seeker is pointing out that, if we wish to be counted among the elect, we need to walk the walk in our lives. I don’t know if it really applies much to most folks here because our participation on this forum indicates that we take our faith seriously. Most of the people seeker is talking about, the nominal christian, probably wouldn’t bother with posting here.

Peace
James

I agree with you totally here. Canada as well has some very ugly things in our past. Residential schools were in the past made for the Natives. In the past as well there were laws where the Indians were not allowed to farm. These specific wrongs have been stopped but of course there is lots of room for improvement in all areas.

We are all very fortunate in that we can all be part of God’s plan in our communities, countries and world wide to bring about God’s rule where Love is King. There is an overwhelming amount to be done. How blessed we are to say yes to the Lord in bringing the Kingdom of God to earth.

 

[JRKH]

The Voice of God or the Holy Ghost is Love. It is never in error. We must always put Love first and listen to Him.

Agreed

The bible is a history and record of God come to earth as a man. The bible is true but only if interpreted properly. It can be read in so many ways so one must read it the correct way and this is with the Voice of Love in our hearts. It is God who must interpret the bible as we read it.

And yet the very existance of this thread, which you have started, undercuts somewhat the argument made earlier where you said,

• One learns right from wrong from the Holy Ghost directly. Man’s ways should never step inbetween.

God teaches us now in our hearts as He always has. It is our choice if we listen to it. No church doctrine can ever replace the voice of the Lord. *
And yet, what is the purpose of your thread if it is not to expand upon God’s teaching; to help make it clearer to others; to help others learn “right from wrong” based upon what you have learned from the Holy Spirit (and from others whom you respect).
This is what Church doctrine is. It is simply the Church attempting to help the faithful live better lives, and to provide guideposts that allow the faithful to enter, with confidence, more deeply into the mysteries of God’s Love.
Truly there are those who need less “doctrine”, that is, less help in this. There are also those who need all the help they can get. After all, why should we not take advantage of all of the great writings and teachings of those who have gone before us?
In short, it is when God’s Love, active and nourished in us and in His Church, works with doctrine that the best results are achieved for the majority of people.

God is Love and God does not need a check from an outside source. Interpretations of the bible need checks. Church interpretations need checks. The Holy Spirit however needs no check. Love is eternal and the only stable thing in existance. When we make Love our God and Master we carry out the will of the Father.

I agree with this basically, however - -
What does one do when two or more people, each being confident of their relationship with the Holy Spirit, prayerfully arrive at differing and opposing interpretations? Each feels the matter is critical to salvation and that their opponent is sinning by spreading a false Gospel. What does one do now?
Christ himself, in Matthew 18: 15-18 tells us to take it to, “The Church”, and that we need to abide by what, “The Church”, decides. Why does He tell us this? I believe it is for two reaons. The first and most obvious one is because He has given His Church on earth the authority to “Bind and Loose…Whatever”. The second is that such a system maintains unity in the body of Christ. Those who debate among themselves have a Christ appointed earthly arbiter. An arbiter to whom Christ Himself expects us to submit in humble obedience.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there needs to be checks and balances even within The Church. But, while we DO need to see our faith fully in the light of Love, we must not lose sight of the very real need, as Christ knew and provided, for an authoritave Church to deal with issues of disagreement when they come up.

Peace
James