The Validity of Infant Baptism

[Redbandito]

Hello Redbandito, thank you for the response. So just to clarify, “…a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he …” is referring to “ONE” event/happening. The reason I ask and/or seek clarification is I recall on another thread that “born of water” meant “baptism” and “born of the spirt” meant Confirmation. However, I may be wrong as the thread was like 1 yr. ago or something. Anyone else have an answer/opinion? One event or two?

Yes, to be born of water and Spirit refers to the ONE event of baptism.

 

[Redbandito]

I recommend reading the CCC if you have questions about confirmation.

Try these:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1298.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1298.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1316.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1321.htm

On baptism giving us the Holy Spirit:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/694.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/701.htm

This last one, in particular, shows precisely what Catholics teach about it. As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us. This is shown to us in the Gospels through Christ’s own baptism.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I recommend reading the CCC if you have questions about confirmation.

Try these:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1298.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1298.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1316.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1321.htm

On baptism giving us the Holy Spirit:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/694.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/701.htm

This last one, in particular, shows precisely what Catholics teach about it. As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us. This is shown to us in the Gospels through Christ’s own baptism.

Thank you, that clarifies it.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/701.htm

This last one, in particular, shows precisely what Catholics teach about it. As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us. This is shown to us in the Gospels through Christ’s own baptism.

Can I seek clarification on this then; is it possible to possess the Holy Ghost without water Baptism? “As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us.” Can the Spirt descend upon us without ariseing from the water?

 

[Northwind]

Can I seek clarification on this then; is it possible to possess the Holy Ghost without water Baptism? “As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us.” Can the Spirt descend upon us without ariseing from the water?

Eph 1:13-14

hope this helps

 

[Santos]

Is it the Catholic position that these two “events” (born of water AND of the Spirit) are one event (both happening at the same time), or two events (separate and both required to enter into the Kingdom of God? (i.e second one being confirmation?)

Thanks and I look forward to your reponse.

1. To be Baptized (born of water and the Spirit) is to be born again, a new birth in the family of God.

2. To be Confirmed is a maturity of that new life in the family of God, to be perfecting or sealed with the Holy Spirit" … … … to be sealed with the Spirit of “Truth”.

Confirmation is also known as the “Sacrament of the Holy Ghost”, the “Sacrament of the Seal”. From the external rite it is known as the “imposition of hands”, or as “anointing with chrism”.

The Sacrament is administered by the bishop. At the beginning of the ceremony there is a general imposition of hands, the bishop meantime praying that the Holy Ghost may come down upon those who have already been baptized: “send forth upon them thy sevenfold Spirit the Holy Paraclete.” He then anoints the forehead of each with chrism saying: “I sign thee with the sign of the cross and confirm thee with the chrism of salvation, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Finally. he gives each a slight blow on the cheek saying: “peace be with thee”. A prayer is added that the Holy Spirit may dwell in the hearts of those who have been confirmed, and the rite closes with the bishop’s blessing.

**This is what the Early Church Fathers have to say about this anointing: **

“After coming from the place of washing we are thoroughly anointed with a blessed unction, from the ancient discipline by which in the priesthood they were accustomed to be anointed with a horn of oil, ever since Aron was anointed by Moses…So also with us, the unction runs on the body but profits us spiritually, in the same way that Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sin. After this, the hand is imposed for a blessing, invoking and inviting the Holy Spirit.”*** —Tertullian (200/206 AD)***

“As Novatian seemed about to die, he received Baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring - if, indeed, such a man can be said to have received it at all. And when he recovered from his illness he did not receive the other things which, in accord with the law of the Church, it is necessary to have; nor was he sealed by the bishop. And since this was not done, how could he have the Holy Spirit?” —St. Cornelius I, Pope (251 AD)

“It is necessary for him that has been baptized also to be anointed, so that by his having received chrism, that is, the anointing, he can be “the anointed of God” and have in himself the grace of Christ. But in turn, it is by the Eucharist that the oil with which the baptized are anointed is sanctified on the alter.” —St. Cyprian of Carthage (254/255 AD)

**This is what the revelation of Jesus Christ says about this anointing: **

The 144,000 Sealed: “Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees untill we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God. I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal…” —Revelation 7:1-4

To all parents and godparents We have an obligation within the family of God to assist the growth of our children and godchildren in their spiritual lives. As adopted sons of God and members of His family, the Church, the baptized must live in harmony with the Family of God. A godparent promises to provide an example of faith to “help the baptized to lead a Christian life in harmony with baptism, and to fulfill faithfully the obligations connected with it” (canon 872).

Let us not fail to fulfill the promises we’ve made to God in the spiritual growth of our children and godchildren unto the Sacrament of Confirmation.

 

[DianJo]

Can I seek clarification on this then; is it possible to possess the Holy Ghost without water Baptism? “As we arise from the water, the Spirit descends upon us.” Can the Spirt descend upon us without ariseing from the water?

It is possible to receive and possess the Holy Spirit at different times during our lives. This being “born again of water and spirt” that we are speaking of - Baptism - is our initial justification, we become part of God’s family and allows us to cooperate and respond with and to God’s grace. What person or religion would deny a child that?

The Sacaments are designed to give us the Holy Spirit during our lives so we can persevere on our faith journey. They allow us to mend our relationship with God when we have damaged it with sin. They give us strength in times of sickness, they impart the Holy Spirit so we have determination to fight for Christ and mature in our relationship with Him, He srengthens us for our daily journey through His body, blood, soul and divinty. The Sacraments are Christ’s way of being with us “till the end of the age.” It is also a way that we “encounter” Christ on a daily basis afterall that’s what the Apostles did - they “encounterd” Christ everyday through ordinary means - that’s what a sacrament is. That’s why the “matter” (water, chrism oil, wheat bread, grape wine, etc.) of the sacraments is important; it’s in these ordinary things that we encounter the grace of Christ.

So, yes, there are many ways that we encounter the Holy Spirit other than baptism and even outside of the sacraments. As the CCC says, He has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism but He Himself is not bound by the sacraments. God dispenses His grace however He sees fit. However, He has given us the normative means of attaining His saving grace - the Sacraments.

Why would someone not want to take advantage of these?