The Value of Education

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MichaelSaint,

You’re very young, aren’t you?

I’ve read the whole thread, and all I can say is come back in about 10-15 years when you’ve been out in the real world and have dealt with all the issues about which you now have such firm opinions (education, debt, NFP, etc.) I suspect your attitude will be a little less arrogant then.
 
peregrinator_it said:
My married friends don’t choose to share intimate details with me (for which I am very grateful.)

I’m not going to ask them for those details, so I can discover some sin and admonish them to stop.

I’m pretty sure that would be sinful.
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Strike the “pretty” in “pretty sure” above.

I was thinking irritatedly to myself of my friends and how any of this could possibly be business of mine, when I remembered that I do have a good friend (also a faithful Catholic) who’s married and without children… but not for lack of trying. She’s gone through some pretty awful & painful things (physically and emotionally) in the last year.

I can’t imagine asking prying questions of someone to make sure he or she’s not sinning, when that person might be in my friend’s situation and those questions could be compounding the person’s grief.

And I’m pretty sure looking at a childless couple and assuming that they are committing sin is an offense against charity, in the very least.
 
dixieagle said:
MichaelSaint,

You’re very young, aren’t you?

I’ve read the whole thread, and all I can say is come back in about 10-15 years when you’ve been out in the real world and have dealt with all the issues about which you now have such firm opinions (education, debt, NFP, etc.) I suspect your attitude will be a little less arrogant then.
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I am suspecting too once he tries to find a job with his MA in Theology that he will have a new understanding of it all.
 
Two of my girl friends are getting their degrees and at the same time, discerning a call to the convent (wait a sec, so am I!). To be honest, it is very much worth it, as there are orders that won’t take you without a degree or will at the very least send you to school anyway. One of these friends is majoring in Lit and minoring in education with the hope of becoming a Catholic school teacher. Another is majoring in Poli-Sci and currently working for the US consulate in Vienna.

Also, with respect to vocations, we don’t know what we’ll end up doing. Some are called to consecrated single life and will have to support themselves. In a marriage, anything could happen and a woman may need a good job to support her children. In religious life, like I said, some orders will make you go to school before they take you or at least send you to school. Also, why shouldn’t women have the same chances as men, if we really are equal in God’s eyes? Should a woman have less education merely because she’s a woman? And if man and woman are equal, why should one have to depend on the other?
 
Michael,

The priests that I know, in their seminary education (and there are two seminaries within an hour of where I live), not only study theology and philosophy, but have at least three years in “another” major. I know this because one of them “dumped” me for the seminary 😉 . He “majored” in history for three years before the theology/philosophy part started. I seem to remember him saying that the seminary required them to do this as a part of their discernment, but I could be wrong.

I also know a priest who didn’t enter the seminary until he was older and had been a professional in another field (one that would have NOTHING to do with the priesthood). He even owned a Porsche! Does this mean he was ignoring God’s call? Is it possible that God did not call him until later? And if he wasn’t, then wasn’t the prior career part of God’s plan?

I also know a priest who was a doctor, pretty big degree, and lots of money spent, there.

So, considering the fact that most stay at home moms do not even know they will be stay at home moms for sure, or even marry, could it be possible that going to school is part of this discernment?

Could you possibly think that all women are supposed to be only mothers or nuns? Not that there is anything to be said against either at all. I’m only saying that SOME are called to the single life.
 
bookgirl32 said:
And my other point is, is this any of your business? The Church has approved NFP and tried to provide guidance on reasons for using it. You can very well, and should, support the use of it over ABC, and support the Church’s reasoning in approving it. You shouldn’t put yourself into a situation in which you really don’t have inside knowledge of why a couple is or isn’t using NFP. Assuming a couple uses NFP to save money for education b/c you see a woman getting an education and a couple NOT having children at that time is not accurate. You don’t know, and you, not being part of the marriage, or God, should NOT know.
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Like I said, inasfar as every sin hurts the entire Body of Christ, it is my business, and the business of every Christian. That is why the first spiritual work of mercy is to “admonish the sinner”.

It would be wrong to assume for me what another’s motive is for using NFP. I should not do that. BUT - many people on this site have COME RIGHT OUT AND ADMITTED that they are practicing NFP right after marriage and have stated the REASONS as well. In that case, I am simply judging them by their own words and admissions, not based on assumptions.
 
bookgirl32 said:
Michael,
I think part of your problem is that you consider YOUR studies in theology a catalyst for you to analyze every single possible moral situation. But you’re doing so without looking at yourself in the process.

Which is worse: NOT taking a couple to task for spending their money inappropriately, not taking a couple to task for using NFP inappropriately, etc? Or doing so (or other things like this) so vehemently and often that all others can see is your judgementalism? God is capable of leading people without you making sure He’s being understood.

You’ve freely admitted in some of your posts that you’re not looking to marry right now. Is it possible that it COULD be God’s plan for you to marry soon, and you’re missing his proddings because your future spouse is turned off by your attitude? I’m not trying to tell you this IS the case, you could be discerning the vocation of the priesthood for all I know. But the same priniples apply there.
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Paragraph #2: God is capable of leading people, but He has put a great deal of responsibility upon the members of His Body. The New Testament attests to this.

Paragraph #3: Yes, of course this is possible because any of us can miss our vocations. I have been turned down by 5 different girls since leaving seminary, and I don’t think it ever had to do with my attitude. I don’t remember ever discussing such hot-button issues with any of these 5 girls. When you do everything in your power to get into a relationship and God does not allow it to happen, it’s a pretty good possibility that He is not calling you at a certain time. When I say “everything in one’s power”, I include “becoming the right one” along with this. Sure, I have my “rough edges”, but I don’t think I turn girls off with my attitude in general - after all, there have been two nice Catholic girls in the last year and a half approach ME and ASK ME out! I said No (for reasons I won’t get into).

Why else don’t I believe I am being called to marry? Jason Evert - the relationships expert with the organization that runs this web forum, says that one should never marry until their education is finished. I am a year and a bit away. BUT - that doesn’t mean I am not building friendships with girls - I am. I hate to put it this way, but I have built friendships and acquaintanceships with girls that may turn into good “investments” - girls who I might start dating once I am a little closer to graduation, if I get the “call”. I am certainly open and praying my rear end off. I am not concerned I will miss His call - although it is possible, and for that reason I discern and pray carefully.
 
Michael_Saint said:
It would be wrong to assume for me what another’s motive is for using NFP. I should not do that. BUT - many people on this site have COME RIGHT OUT AND ADMITTED that they are practicing NFP right after marriage and have stated the REASONS as well. In that case, I am simply judging them by their own words and admissions, not based on assumptions.
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But why?

Since the Church hasn’t published a definitive list of serious reasons, you are applying you own opinion to their situation. So what?

–

To the education thing. Women and men must do as much as they can with the talents they are given. For a woman, a career is not out of the question. I am of the opinion that all women should be prepared if something should happen to their husband. Either lots of life insurance or a career that’s possible. That is only prudent.
 
peregrinator_it said:
I just can’t understanding pursuing a vocation (ANY vocation, be it to the priesthood, or to marriage, or to religious life) while setting limits on how much you’re willing to give of yourself or your money or your time.

It’s like saying “Yes, God, I’ll become a priest, (or a religious) but I think it’s unreasonable to do anything in your service after 11pm; that’s just not necessary, it’s ‘extra’ and I shouldn’t have to do it.”

This attitude combined with the repetition of the dollar figure is what prompts me to use words like “ungenerous.” I know you don’t agree, but higher education is (for some people) NOT “extra,” but a proper use of their talents (in the Biblical sense.)

I concede that college tuition is unreasonably inflated, but no potential spouse you meet has the power to change that on her own, and so can hardly be faulted for paying what she has to.

Obviously, you have to be prudent when handling money/work hours in marriage, but if you do your utmost in that regard in good faith, then God will provide the rest. I’ve never seen Him let anyone down.
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You are misreading me again. I am not placing limits. Re-read that post about the parallel with the “alcoholic woman”.
 
whatevergirl said:
You go girl:thumbsup: lol This post made me laugh.

Michael–many women persue educational avenues for a variety of reasons. Suppose a woman never marries? Suppose a woman marries, and her husband falls ill, or leaves her or dies and she needs to support her family? Every woman should seek an education, degree, whatever if she chooses.
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Once again, you people are simply passing your eyes over my posts superficially, not to try to understand me, but just to find something you can use against me and argue against.

I already posted that if a woman wants a career she should pursue education. I already said that an education is a good idea for a back-up plan. Read my posts before you go shooting from the hip like that.
 
peregrinator_it said:
My married friends don’t choose to share intimate details with me (for which I am very grateful.)

I’m not going to ask them for those details, so I can discover some sin and admonish them to stop.

I’m pretty sure that would be sinful.
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Once again, a strawman. I didn’t say “pump them for information”. But if the issue comes up, you may be required to seize the opportunity - in fact, a failure to admonish can also be sinful.
 
Carolinagirl411 said:
Originally Posted by Michael Saint
“The first spiritual work of mercy is to “admonish the sinner”. If you care about your friends, you will make it your “business”.”

yeah but there are better ways of going about it. Going to all of your friends and sticking your nose in their private business on purpose just to criticize and judge would leave you without any friends…Sometimes it is better to live a good Christian life by example and then let God use you to make a point. Not going around snooping lol You can make a point without saying anything
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We are called to preach primarily by DEED, but ALSO by WORD. Vatican II says the Christian must always look for opportunities to speak the truth, not just witness to it.
 
Michael_Saint said:
You are misreading me again. I am not placing limits. Re-read that post about the parallel with the “alcoholic woman”.
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I think the mis-reading must be mutual. I don’t think debt acquired for education (especially since it’s just about impossible to earn a degree without incurring debt) is in any way comparable to being an alcoholic.

Education is good and necessary to proper development as human being; it’s using the talents God has entrusted to you.

Alcoholism is a disease at best and sinful at worst.

They’re not the same thing.
 
And if I were to summarize what I was trying to say in that longer post, it would be:

You just can’t pursue a vocation by telling God what you aren’t willing to give .

(I.e. you’re not willing to give up time/money to pay off your spouse’s student loans.)
 
dixieagle said:
MichaelSaint,

You’re very young, aren’t you?

I’ve read the whole thread, and all I can say is come back in about 10-15 years when you’ve been out in the real world and have dealt with all the issues about which you now have such firm opinions (education, debt, NFP, etc.) I suspect your attitude will be a little less arrogant then.
Click to expand...
Ouch! That was harsh.

Now, to address the inaccuracies in your post:
  1. If you consider 30 years old “very young”, then I suppose I am “very young”.
  2. In 10-15 years I will be 40-45 years old. What were you thinking, that I’d be 30-35?
  3. I have been “out in the real world” since the year 2000. That is when I got my university degree and began teaching. I have lived on my own in Saskatchewan, North Dakota (university), St. Louis (seminary), and for the last 3 years in Alberta, Canada.
  4. As far as not having “dealt with the issues” mention, let me go through the ones you cited:
    a. Education: Received an Education degree in 2000 after 5 years in post-secondary; Studied Philosophy and Theology while in the seminary for 2 years, from 2002-2004. Been working part-time on getting my Masters in Theology and Christian Ministry through Steubenville, from 2005 to the present.
    b. Debt: Had 12,500 dollars in student loans to pay back after my education degree. Within a little over a year I had paid it off.
    c. NFP: Not married - no personal experience, but then again, the Pope didn’t have any either.
Do you have any further assumptions - this time based on my corrections?
 
sanctamaria17 said:
Two of my girl friends are getting their degrees and at the same time, discerning a call to the convent (wait a sec, so am I!). To be honest, it is very much worth it, as there are orders that won’t take you without a degree or will at the very least send you to school anyway. One of these friends is majoring in Lit and minoring in education with the hope of becoming a Catholic school teacher. Another is majoring in Poli-Sci and currently working for the US consulate in Vienna.

Also, with respect to vocations, we don’t know what we’ll end up doing. Some are called to consecrated single life and will have to support themselves. In a marriage, anything could happen and a woman may need a good job to support her children. In religious life, like I said, some orders will make you go to school before they take you or at least send you to school. Also, why shouldn’t women have the same chances as men, if we really are equal in God’s eyes? Should a woman have less education merely because she’s a woman? And if man and woman are equal, why should one have to depend on the other?
Click to expand...
I fully agree with this post - very good points. Blessings on the discernment - I have long said that God is calling a lot of girls to religious vocations, but so many are saying “No”. Thank you for being open, and may God’s will be done.
 
bookgirl32 said:
Michael,

The priests that I know, in their seminary education (and there are two seminaries within an hour of where I live), not only study theology and philosophy, but have at least three years in “another” major. I know this because one of them “dumped” me for the seminary 😉 . He “majored” in history for three years before the theology/philosophy part started. I seem to remember him saying that the seminary required them to do this as a part of their discernment, but I could be wrong.

I also know a priest who didn’t enter the seminary until he was older and had been a professional in another field (one that would have NOTHING to do with the priesthood). He even owned a Porsche! Does this mean he was ignoring God’s call? Is it possible that God did not call him until later? And if he wasn’t, then wasn’t the prior career part of God’s plan?

I also know a priest who was a doctor, pretty big degree, and lots of money spent, there.

So, considering the fact that most stay at home moms do not even know they will be stay at home moms for sure, or even marry, could it be possible that going to school is part of this discernment?

Could you possibly think that all women are supposed to be only mothers or nuns? Not that there is anything to be said against either at all. I’m only saying that SOME are called to the single life.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say anything about men getting degrees. Once again, people are not reading to discern my point, but only to argue. Please don’t do this.
 
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