The Value of Education

[Carolinagirl411]

lol michael

I think they were being humorous/sarcastic meaning you would have a lot of trouble finding a decent job with that type of degree and therefore have trouble dealing with debt and therefore would loosen up on your current restrictions on a spouse b/c you would have “wised” up

That’s my interpretation lol I guess they could explain better

 

[Michael_Saint]

But why?

Since the Church hasn’t published a definitive list of serious reasons, you are applying you own opinion to their situation. So what?

–

To the education thing. Women and men must do as much as they can with the talents they are given. For a woman, a career is not out of the question. I am of the opinion that all women should be prepared if something should happen to their husband. Either lots of life insurance or a career that’s possible. That is only prudent.

You are getting much too relativistic on this point. Sometimes it’s pretty clear. If someone comes out and says, “Yes, I make $100,000 a year, more than enough to provide for a child, and yes we could certainly afford kids, but my wife doesn’t want to have a kid getting in the way of her job, which she wants to do for the next five years because she derives a great deal of satisfaction from it”. Now, is your response honestly, “Well, we don’t know that this is immoral because we have no definitive list from the Vatican”. It’s called “common sense” - how can you possibly cite “grave reasons” for this situation? The person is clearly saying he can afford kids, but the pleasure of his wife’s job is just too darn good for her to put aside at this point. Now come on, quit taking this argument to illogical and silly conclusions.

Obviously, the decision as to whether NFP is immoral is a couple’s. But isn’t it true that this issue is brought before priests and spiritual directors often by Catholic couples who want to do the right things? And don’t they want the priest to make a judgment on it? If what you say is true, then the priest would have to turn them out of his office and say, “You know, there is no way for me to know if NFP is moral in your case, so you’ll have to leave and figure this one out on your own”. That is the absurd implications of this relativistic statement of yours.

 

[Michael_Saint]

To the education thing. Women and men must do as much as they can with the talents they are given. For a woman, a career is not out of the question. I am of the opinion that all women should be prepared if something should happen to their husband. Either lots of life insurance or a career that’s possible. That is only prudent.

I have already agreed that a degree is a good back up plan. Don’t make these comments unless you have read my posts.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I think the mis-reading must be mutual. I don’t think debt acquired for education (especially since it’s just about impossible to earn a degree without incurring debt) is in any way comparable to being an alcoholic.

Education is good and necessary to proper development as human being; it’s using the talents God has entrusted to you.

Alcoholism is a disease at best and sinful at worst.

They’re not the same thing.

Boy, you just keep proving my point. I said accumulating an UNNECESSARY CREDIT CARD debt, not the debt that comes from an education. This frivolous spending which can put a family in great financial crisis CAN indeed be immoral.

What is the point of continuing this discussion if you are going to misconstrue me in every reply you make?

 

[Michael_Saint]

And if I were to summarize what I was trying to say in that longer post, it would be:

You just can’t pursue a vocation by telling God what you aren’t willing to give .

(I.e. you’re not willing to give up time/money to pay off your spouse’s student loans.)

Another example of you misunderstanding me.

I already said I would be willing to give up time and money to pay off her student loans.

Let’s re-name this thread “peregrinator_it misconstrues Michael, who has to correct the misconstruction, while the issue at hand gets neglected”. It would be more accurate.

 

[bookgirl32]

Like I said, inasfar as every sin hurts the entire Body of Christ, it is my business, and the business of every Christian. That is why the first spiritual work of mercy is to “admonish the sinner”.

It would be wrong to assume for me what another’s motive is for using NFP. I should not do that. BUT - many people on this site have COME RIGHT OUT AND ADMITTED that they are practicing NFP right after marriage and have stated the REASONS as well. In that case, I am simply judging them by their own words and admissions, not based on assumptions.

And, by your own admission, you’re still judging them.

 

[Michael_Saint]

lol michael

I think they were being humorous/sarcastic meaning you would have a lot of trouble finding a decent job with that type of degree and therefore have trouble dealing with debt and therefore would loosen up on your current restrictions on a spouse b/c you would have “wised” up

That’s my interpretation lol I guess they could explain better

Definitely humorous and not reality. Shall I cite the number of people with the degree I have who are supporting large families?

 

[peregrinator_it]

Another example of you misunderstanding me.

I already said I would be willing to give up time and money to pay off her student loans.

Let’s re-name this thread “peregrinator_it misconstrues Michael, who has to correct the misconstruction, while the issue at hand gets neglected”. It would be more accurate.

Uh… you responded to a post of mine where I was talking about debt incurred because of education with the example of alcoholism… so I thought you were relating the two to each other.

I realize you’re responding to more than one person at once and so it must be hard to read each post carefully.

 

[Michael_Saint]

And, by your own admission, you’re still judging them.

Who said judgment is wrong? More like it, how do you define “judgment”?

Matthew 7 talks about judging the state of one’s soul. It has NOTHING to do with judging ACTIONS - which we all must do if we are going to “Admonish the Sinner”. Do you people know the spiritual works of mercy?

 

[PaulinVA]

It’s called “common sense” - how can you possibly cite “grave reasons” for this situation? The person is clearly saying he can afford kids, but the pleasure of his wife’s job is just too darn good for her to put aside at this point. Now come on, quit taking this argument to illogical and silly conclusions.

If what you say is true, then the priest would have to turn them out of his office and say, “You know, there is no way for me to know if NFP is moral in your case, so you’ll have to leave and figure this one out on your own”. That is the absurd implications of this relativistic statement of yours.

Okay, let’s try this again.

We are not mind readers here. You state an opinion. People comment. At that point, you trash a responder’s post based on information you have not yet revealed. Not fair.

I think I’m going to check out of this thread - it isn’t going anywhere.

You may have the last word if you wish.

 

[bookgirl32]

Paragraph #2: God is capable of leading people, but He has put a great deal of responsibility upon the members of His Body. The New Testament attests to this.

The new testament also attests to “judge not lest yea be judged”. You’re getting guidance, encouragement, and even warning, mixed up with judging.

Why else don’t I believe I am being called to marry? Jason Evert - the relationships expert with the organization that runs this web forum, says that one should never marry until their education is finished. I am a year and a bit away. BUT - that doesn’t mean I am not building friendships with girls - I am. I hate to put it this way, but I have built friendships and acquaintanceships with girls that may turn into good “investments” - girls who I might start dating once I am a little closer to graduation, if I get the “call”. I am certainly open and praying my rear end off. I am not concerned I will miss His call - although it is possible, and for that reason I discern and pray carefully.

I would always be concerned you would miss His call, isn’t this why you’re praying and discerning carefully?

 

[bookgirl32]

Once again, a strawman. I didn’t say “pump them for information”. But if the issue comes up, you may be required to seize the opportunity - in fact, a failure to admonish can also be sinful.

When you are absolutely for certain that they are, since the Church informed you of it. Example, someone admits they’re using ABC.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Uh… you responded to a post of mine where I was talking about debt incurred because of education with the example of alcoholism… so I thought you were relating the two to each other.

I realize you’re responding to more than one person at once and so it must be hard to read each post carefully.

The example of alcoholism was drawn to the example of credit card debts. I was leaving the issue of education aside at that point. The point I was trying to make was that there is a difference between a “burden” that one should “bear” with their spouse, and a “burden” that goes “over the line” - one that should prevent you from marrying that person to begin with. Leaving the toilet seat up is a “burden” one should bear with. Immoral behaviour is not a “burden” in the same sense - it is something that should keep one from marrying such a person.

Doesn’t anyone else see the blatant misunderstandings here? Please chip in if you do. I don’t have time to correct all these misunderstandings.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Another example of you misunderstanding me.

I already said I would be willing to give up time and money to pay off her student loans.

Let’s re-name this thread “peregrinator_it misconstrues Michael, who has to correct the misconstruction, while the issue at hand gets neglected”. It would be more accurate.

I mean, as I’ve said a couple times now (I know you’re reading a lot of posts) I completely, totally, and whole-heartedly agree as far as the imprudence etc, of choosing to shoulder burdens like alcoholism. But that’s a completely different conversation.

I totally missed the bit where you said you would pay off student loans…

 

[Michael_Saint]

One more misunderstanding from peregrinator_it and I will stop responding to this person’s posts. It’s getting on my nerves and wasting my time.

I will still respond to the rest of you.

 

[bookgirl32]

c. NFP: Not married - no personal experience, but then again, the Pope didn’t have any either.

And again, you are not the Pope.

 

[bookgirl32]

I have already agreed that a degree is a good back up plan. Don’t make these comments unless you have read my posts.

Michael, please admit that at the beginning of this thread you seriously questioned that many women did this. You’ve given people a lot of reason to think the things they are. I’m not saying you meant them, but you’ve given it.

 

[bookgirl32]

Boy, you just keep proving my point. I said accumulating an UNNECESSARY CREDIT CARD debt, not the debt that comes from an education. This frivolous spending which can put a family in great financial crisis CAN indeed be immoral.

What is the point of continuing this discussion if you are going to misconstrue me in every reply you make?

I can go find where you said you thought it would be irresponsible for a woman to “expect” you to pay her education loans. You may have changed your mind, or started agreeing with people, but at least admit you said it.

 

[peregrinator_it]

The point I was trying to make was that there is a difference between a “burden” that one should “bear” with their spouse, and a “burden” that goes “over the line” - one that should prevent you from marrying that person to begin with. Leaving the toilet seat up is a “burden” one should bear with.

All I’m trying to say is educational debt belongs in the "bearable burden category, but I’m assuming you’ve got that now.

Doesn’t anyone else see the blatant misunderstandings here? Please chip in if you do. I don’t have time to correct all these misunderstandings.

I am very confused… because I’ve tried to quote you every time I respond so you know you’ve written that I’m responding to…

 

[Michael_Saint]

The new testament also attests to “judge not lest yea be judged”. You’re getting guidance, encouragement, and even warning, mixed up with judging.

Boy, you just passed over that post where I discussed “judging”. Unbelievable. And instead of responding to what I write, you just say, “Yeah, well, the NT says such and such too”. That’s fallacious arguing - not addressing one’s argument but showing in a proof-text how one is guilty of the same thing.

It’s right what they say - women are always right. This thread is a good example of the reason why a man can never win an argument with a woman.:banghead: