The Value of Education

[bookgirl32]

Boy, you just keep proving my point. I said accumulating an UNNECESSARY CREDIT CARD debt, not the debt that comes from an education. This frivolous spending which can put a family in great financial crisis CAN indeed be immoral.

What is the point of continuing this discussion if you are going to misconstrue me in every reply you make?

And isn’t there a possibility you’re “misconstruing” yourself in all of these situations you seem to be so wise about?

 

[bookgirl32]

Who said judgment is wrong? More like it, how do you define “judgment”?

Matthew 7 talks about judging the state of one’s soul. It has NOTHING to do with judging ACTIONS - which we all must do if we are going to “Admonish the Sinner”. Do you people know the spiritual works of mercy?

Judging yourself is much different than judging others!

 

[bookgirl32]

Boy, you just passed over that post where I discussed “judging”. Unbelievable. And instead of responding to what I write, you just say, “Yeah, well, the NT says such and such too”. That’s fallacious arguing - not addressing one’s argument but showing in a proof-text how one is guilty of the same thing.

It’s right what they say - women are always right. This thread is a good example of the reason why a man can never win an argument with a woman.:banghead:

Well THAT thought might really prepare you for marriage .

I admit I have trouble keeping up with all of your threads. So please correct me where I’m wrong. And yes, I could be doing what I’m accusing you of doing, how does it feel?

 

[Michael_Saint]

And again, you are not the Pope.

This society is so incredibly dense when it comes to the art of ANALOGY.

An analogy - and I can tell you have no concept of it - is that a situation is compared with another in order to draw a necessary parallel. As my professor Dr. Miravalle states, though, every analogy has both a SIMILARITY and a DISSIMILARITY.

You have obviously decided to focus on the DISSIMILARITY in order to “prove me wrong”. But there is a SIMILARITY - that one does not have to practice NFP to have a knowledge of it.

Of course, because you want to argue with me, you simply glaze over that fact and opt instead for the statement you made. It would be nice if some of you would actually tell me what you DO AGREE WITH in what I say, so I know where we stand and can respond to you better.

But there seems to be a lack of interest in discussing the issue - you all just want one thing: to attack Michael. That is no longer a discussion.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I must make some points here:

1. First of all, I have received much food for thought, and I may indeed have to rethink my position on the “value of education”, and the debts a SAHM wanna-be incurs. I will have to reflect more deeply upon this issue. However, I stick to my guns on the NFP issue.
2. Secondly, I have come to see the benefits and drawbacks of the internet. The advantage is I can discuss this issue with people all over the country. The disadvantage is that it is SO EASY for one to miss the other’s points in this forum and according to this method, to misconstrue someone, to focus on side issues and conveniently miss another’s main point, and to make a barrage of attacks that are almost impossible to correct. If I weigh the pros and the cons, I have to say there are more pros than cons.
3. Finally, I have come to see how a conversation can degenerate and be impossible to properly carry out when emotional reactions take the place of calm deliberation and rational reflection. It really gets nowhere. I will take greater care not to stoop to this myself, even if others around me might.

 

[dixieagle]

Ouch! That was harsh.

Now, to address the inaccuracies in your post:

1. If you consider 30 years old “very young”, then I suppose I am “very young”.
2. In 10-15 years I will be 40-45 years old. What were you thinking, that I’d be 30-35?
3. I have been “out in the real world” since the year 2000. That is when I got my university degree and began teaching. I have lived on my own in Saskatchewan, North Dakota (university), St. Louis (seminary), and for the last 3 years in Alberta, Canada.
4. As far as not having “dealt with the issues” mention, let me go through the ones you cited:
   a. Education: Received an Education degree in 2000 after 5 years in post-secondary; Studied Philosophy and Theology while in the seminary for 2 years, from 2002-2004. Been working part-time on getting my Masters in Theology and Christian Ministry through Steubenville, from 2005 to the present.
   b. Debt: Had 12,500 dollars in student loans to pay back after my education degree. Within a little over a year I had paid it off.
   c. NFP: Not married - no personal experience, but then again, the Pope didn’t have any either.

Do you have any further assumptions - this time based on my corrections?

Well, I stand corrected about your age. I would have sworn you were no more than about 23 or so, though, to someone my age (55) you are still nearly a baby.

The not married/no NFP experience part was right, though

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Aww Michael Saint

looks like you are having a rough time of it…I don’t think it is just women…I know quite a few men who will argue till they are blue in the face just to have the last word and not making any logical sense…Even when you present them with fact they try to deny it just so they don’t look stupid

I think it is just you can’t win in this forum…it is useless…I don’t care what topic you bring up or how you present it there will always be people who disagree and when you are trying to prove a point that can be very frustrating. I have enjoyed discussing this topic with you regardless of our disagreements! Try not to let it get to ya…I’ve learned this forum can provide much stress sometimes.

PS: I am somewhat jealous that you have studied Theology and working on a degree in it. I would love to be able to teach theology in a university, but alas I would wrack up more debt to do so I guess I’ll stick to what I have! Good luck with it though, I really do hope you get a slamming job! You will be talented based on your ability to debate

Peace
-C

 

[Michael_Saint]

Aww Michael Saint

looks like you are having a rough time of it…I don’t think it is just women…I know quite a few men who will argue till they are blue in the face just to have the last word and not making any logical sense…Even when you present them with fact they try to deny it just so they don’t look stupid

I think it is just you can’t win in this forum…it is useless…I don’t care what topic you bring up or how you present it there will always be people who disagree and when you are trying to prove a point that can be very frustrating. I have enjoyed discussing this topic with you regardless of our disagreements! Try not to let it get to ya…I’ve learned this forum can provide much stress sometimes.

PS: I am somewhat jealous that you have studied Theology and working on a degree in it. I would love to be able to teach theology in a university, but alas I would wrack up more debt to do so I guess I’ll stick to what I have! Good luck with it though, I really do hope you get a slamming job! You will be talented based on your ability to debate

Peace
-C

Well thank you, thank you very much. Kind words indeed.

And as you can see, I am not one of those men that will argue till they are “blue in the face” just to get out of admitting I am wrong. I have been re-thinking this issue thanks to y’all (picked that one up from the Tennesseeans at my seminary).

Ignatius Press has requested to see the full manuscripts for two of my works - one on the liturgical reform, one on the place of Vatican II today (as you can tell, I cite it all the time). Would ask for your prayers, that Fr. Fessio will agree to send them through the presses. Thanks, everybody!

 

[maria29]

I don’t understand that quote. Please explain?

My dh has a MA in Theology as well from Franciscan. He has never been able to find a job in that area which would support a family. Starting salary where you can actually use your MA is proably around $20-25,000 a year (add an additional $10,000 for a larger diocese). Figure into that the cost of your MA which was proably done with partially with student loans.

He could of gone on to a PhD, but the jobs opportunties are even slimmer. There are about 3-5 jobs and about 200 applicants at any given time.

The premise of a woman not getting a degree if she is going to be a SAHM could also be applied to what one is getting a degree in. How prudent is it to get a degree in subject which won’t provide for a family?

 

[Michael_Saint]

My dh has a MA in Theology as well from Franciscan. He has never been able to find a job in that area which would support a family. Starting salary where you can actually use your MA is proably around $20-25,000 a year (add an additional $10,000 for a larger diocese). Figure into that the cost of your MA which was proably done with partially with student loans.

He could of gone on to a PhD, but the jobs opportunties are even slimmer. There are about 3-5 jobs and about 200 applicants at any given time.

The premise of a woman not getting a degree if she is going to be a SAHM could also be applied to what one is getting a degree in. How prudent is it to get a degree in subject which won’t provide for a family?

Number 1, I have an education degree - teaching pays $75,000 a year up here for high school.

Number 2, NONE of it is being funded through loans. I am paying the whole thing myself.

Number 3, how prudent is it to get a degree in this area? Considering it will nicely buttress my college degree in teaching, I would say it is not imprudent at all.

 

[gardenswithkids]

… It would be nice if some of you would actually tell me what you DO AGREE WITH in what I say, so I know where we stand and can respond to you better. …

I conditionally agree with some of your points but apply them to both men and women.

1. Irresponsible college debt: I apply this concept to both men or women. I believe people should look realistically at their financial resource, future income earning potential, etc. Not all debt is irresponsible, but not all college expenses are wise. College is not a neccesity.
2. Post-poning children because of excessive college (or other) debt is sad. This one gets a bit sticky and I don’t intend to judge others, but it does seem somewhat ironic when people spend a small fortune that they don’t have and then decide they can not afford children. I suspect that many of these people do not make that conscious decision, but rather get themselves into this situation without thinking about it as they incur the debt. I do not believe that NFP is always wrong in this situation, nor do I judge those who use it, but I do encourage young Catholics to consider what impact their educational expenses may have on their ability to afford a family in the future. My concern applies equally to both men and women.

 

[maria29]

Number 1, I have an education degree - teaching pays $75,000 a year up here for high school.

Number 2, NONE of it is being funded through loans. I am paying the whole thing myself.

Number 3, how prudent is it to get a degree in this area? Considering it will nicely buttress my college degree in teaching, I would say it is not imprudent at all.

I see you’re from Canada. Those kind of salaries are not possible in the US which is where most of the students who get a MA in Theology are from. At a private high school you may start at $40,000 (and I’m being generous here).

That’s awesome you’re paying for the whole thing yourself but again, I know that the majority of MA students don’t do this and use student loans. Perhaps it’s changed since we’ve been there.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I conditionally agree with some of your points but apply them to both men and women.

1. Irresponsible college debt: I apply this concept to both men or women. I believe people should look realistically at their financial resource, future income earning potential, etc. Not all debt is irresponsible, but not all college expenses are wise. College is not a neccesity.
2. Post-poning children because of excessive college (or other) debt is sad. This one gets a bit sticky and I don’t intend to judge others, but it does seem somewhat ironic when people spend a small fortune that they don’t have and then decide they can not afford children. I suspect that many of these people do not make that conscious decision, but rather get themselves into this situation without thinking about it as they incur the debt. I do not believe that NFP is always wrong in this situation, nor do I judge those who use it, but I do encourage young Catholics to consider what impact their educational expenses may have on their ability to afford a family in the future. My concern applies equally to both men and women.

This is a great post. THANK YOU for responding to my plea.

I agree with all of it too. Yes, this should apply equally to men, and yes I do see the irony in it all as well. And no, we should not judge them so much.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I know that the majority of MA students don’t do this and use student loans. Perhaps it’s changed since we’ve been there.

I doubt it - if anything it has gotten more expensive.

BTW, what brought you to Steubenville? (I mean Major)?

 

[dranzal]

I’m going to go back and read the whole thread, I promise.

This is a topic I am discussing on another forum of alum from a gifted high school.

My position is…

1. Learning about life, history, theology, science, math, music, art, etc. is inherently valuable. There is no denying this.
2. Self motivated learning, whether done individually or in college, is retained to a much greater degree than “compelled” learning. In other words, you’ll remember the stuff in which you are interested more than the stuff you “had to learn to graduate”.

This one is evident in most people’s recollections from school. If someone loves history, they can devour books rapidly and retain much of the genuinely useful info. If someone has no interest in history, teachers can pour the info into the skull for years and none will stick (this was me in history ).

1. Learning for the sake of acquiring knowledge rather than a career is absolutely free. An interested person has a wealth of information at their fingertips like never before via the internet. The library is valuable as well.
2. Given #3 above, the only practical reason to acquire knowledge via college is to obtain proof of knowledge aka (booming superhero voice) THE ALMIGHTY DEGREE. This is a valuable tool for getting into graduate studies and professional careers. Right?

But WAIT!

1. Since every Tom, Sally, and Harry is escorted from the high school graduation to the college dormitory, the ALMIGHTY DEGREE has much LESS value than it did previously. These days, most job seekers have a degree. Employers who don’t actually need degreed workers can and do require one anyway.

End result…wide eye’d, fresh faced young men and women with little hope of getting a job paying enough to make payments on the COLOSSAL STUDENT LOAN DEBT.

“Mom, Dad, can I move back in with you until the loan is paid off?”

Now, the degree that used to have value in the workplace has little.

“But education is important!!!”

Learning is important. Knowledge is important. Acquiring those at an institution is only important if you need the degree.

 

[bookgirl32]

This society is so incredibly dense when it comes to the art of ANALOGY.

See, was the rudeness needed?

An analogy - and I can tell you have no concept of it - is that a situation is compared with another in order to draw a necessary parallel. As my professor Dr. Miravalle states, though, every analogy has both a SIMILARITY and a DISSIMILARITY.

I’m fully aware of analogy, thanks. My major, in my possibly unnecessary education b/c I am now a stay at home mom, was English. We kind of had to know what it was. My point is, there’s not a lot of parallel. The similarity outweighs the dissimilarity in the parallel you’re trying to draw. I’m not insulting you by saying “you’re not the Pope”. I’m simply trying to draw attention to the fact that the Pope, by his position, is still in a MUCH higher position to come to some conclusions than you are.

You have obviously decided to focus on the DISSIMILARITY in order to “prove me wrong”. But there is a SIMILARITY - that one does not have to practice NFP to have a knowledge of it.

I’m not talking about having knowledge of NFP. I’m talking about the right to judge whether someone is using it improperly. Part of the vocation of a priest (once ordination has occurred), and the subsequent training, is to minister to a married couple. You’re not a priest yet, either.

Of course, because you want to argue with me, you simply glaze over that fact and opt instead for the statement you made. It would be nice if some of you would actually tell me what you DO AGREE WITH in what I say, so I know where we stand and can respond to you better.

I’ve told you over and over that I do agree with many things you say. I’ve also told you that your attitude, your judgementalism (there is a difference between judgementalism and upholding, even under pressure from someone NOT to do so, the teachings of the Church), and your inflammatory language DO make me want to argue with you.

But there seems to be a lack of interest in discussing the issue - you all just want one thing: to attack Michael. That is no longer a discussion.

Okay, but then you need to admit to your part in letting it get that way.

 

[dranzal]

For the record, I do have a BS in biology from a Jesuit institution that sent me into years of both debt and doubt.

My dh also has a degree (sociology) from the same institution. He also had years of debt and doubt.

Our combined debt after scholarships and grants and parent loans came to $45,000.

Much of the “information” I processed in college has had little value.

Courses I took that have had lasting inherent value include…

1. Philosophy. The logic courses do encourage critical thinking. The other philosophy courses introduced us to some of the great thinkers through history. This can be valuable for anyone regardless of level of interest.

Honorable mention. Spanish language. In this country right now this would have been useful to take. I took, instead, Biblical Greek. My only real recollection was the priest always saying “How now brown cow”.

Courses that had value for me due to high interest in the subject:

1. One semester of painting. To be honest, though, I could have accomplished the same paintings by simply buying the supplies.
2. Chorale. I love singing and enjoy choral music. Most parishes are not blessed with choirs that can do choral music.

Courses that have had little value.

1. Biology. This is unfortunate. This was my focus as a pre-med. I decided in my last year that med school was not for me. Without a followup degree in science or teaching, this is mostly “gee whiz” useless knowledge. Honestly, when will I need to know that a chiropteran is a bat or the name of the 12 cranial nerves? Those are useful to people in those fields, but just trivia for people who are not in those fields.
2. Chemistry (my minor). Similar reasons as Biology…
   When will I need to know the finer points of Kreb’s cycle. Most people have probably never even heard of it.
3. Math. This was useful while I taught high schoolers after school while at college. In real life, calculus has only been used to show my children an example of higher math. High school math is more than sufficient for what most people encounter daily.
4. Social Sciences. More trivia for the most part. I did not have an appreciation at all of this field while in college.

That said, there have been happy consequences of having attended that specific college at that time.

I met dh there. We have since married and had five children. We have endured great tragedy. We have learned vastly more about our faith than either of us learned at the Jesuit institution via “homeschooling”. That newly cemented faith was instrumental in surviving the tragedy.

Had I not gone there, I would have met someone to marry. I would have likely had children. Still, I firmly believe that what came to pass was what God had planned for us.

So, the $45000 did not amount to much educationally. It did allow dh and I to meet.

 

[Joannm]

I think my husband feels the same about his masters in theology. A totally uselses degree unless you plan on getting a PhD. And even then there is only 5 teaching positions in the US with over 200 applicants.

One thing I will say too, if you don’t use your science degree in 7 years its considered expired. My husband has faced this numerous times, with most labs telling him he’d have to go back to school for 2 years in order for his degree to be valid again!

I don’t think an MA in theology is useless unless you are going for a PhD. I know many, many people with the MA in theology who do volunteer work for the church and even more who work for the Church full time. Those who simply volunteer find that the degree helps them tremendousy in sharing the faith with others and in helping them in their own spiritual life. I found the MA took me to another level of thought and understanding that I lacked before. My husband is now going for his MA in theology so that he can become a hospital chaplain and so that it would assist him in his vocation as a deacon.

I did go on for further study, not to teach but to help me in my ministry in the parish and on the diocesan level. It also gives me a bit more credibility in certain circles but it is not necessary for what I do. I just found it useful for my own enrichment (but I could have done without writing a dissertation - that took a piece out of me).

 

[gardenswithkids]

I agree with all of it too. Yes, this should apply equally to men, and yes I do see the irony in it all as well. And no, we should not judge them so much.

Then we agree on some more things. Good! We also agreed earlier that mothers have an important role in the education of their children. In your earlier posts it came across that you thought SAHM weren’t “worth” educating. Perhaps your concern isn’t about “wasting” formal education on mothers, but on the imprudence of anyone incurring a huge college debt.

You report avoiding excessive debt while acquiring your degrees. That is wise; I wish more people would do likewise—particularly my own children. My oldest child is in the process of selecting a college. We are weighing the cost of state vs. private, look at alumni and university support in finding future jobs, selection of a practical major, etc. We pray to make wise decisions.​

I wish to bring up another point for your consideration on the education of women. Historically, a university education was often only attainable for men from the upper classes and perhaps clergy. However, many saints devoted themselves to educating young women. St. Angela Merici, St. Henry de Osso, Blessed Marie Rose Durocher and many others attained holiness through educating girls and women. I believe it was St. Thomas More who personally provided an academic education for his daughter. Since Universities no longer exclude women and since college degrees are more common now, we will likely see more mothers with college degrees canonized as saints in the future. :getholy:

 

[maria29]

I don’t think an MA in theology is useless unless you are going for a PhD. I know many, many people with the MA in theology who do volunteer work for the church and even more who work for the Church full time. Those who simply volunteer find that the degree helps them tremendousy in sharing the faith with others and in helping them in their own spiritual life. I found the MA took me to another level of thought and understanding that I lacked before. My husband is now going for his MA in theology so that he can become a hospital chaplain and so that it would assist him in his vocation as a deacon.

I did go on for further study, not to teach but to help me in my ministry in the parish and on the diocesan level. It also gives me a bit more credibility in certain circles but it is not necessary for what I do. I just found it useful for my own enrichment (but I could have done without writing a dissertation - that took a piece out of me).

My point was that a MA in Theology is useless in the aspect that its hard to find a job that supports your family once your in debt from said degree. If you know a church or diocese that pays at least $60,000 to someone with a MA in Theology then please let me know