The Value of Education

[bookgirl32]

This is kind of a flippant post, but are there ANY PhD’s other than that of psychologist that are considered a “strong” job field? Business maybe? (I would think and MBA would be the top there, other than if you were going to teach).

A Juris Doctorate, you’ll probably have no problem paying back the debt, and MD or DO (or is it OD), you’re almost guaranteed paying it back.

I’m still up for getting the PhD, even with the debt, because I happen to think that education is an investment and worth it. You can get married and have kids and be paying off a student loan for a long time and make it work. It might not be the smartest financial move, but I’d hate to say it’s irresponsible. Especially for a Catholic, where in the world of academia there needs to be a little bit of a turn around from far left liberalism being the only “academically legitimate” standpoint anymore. (Can you tell what turned me off of finishing my English MA?)

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Are you getting your PhD in Psychology? I just finished my master’s which completely turned me off from getting my PhD. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[bookgirl32]

Are you getting your PhD in Psychology? I just finished my master’s which completely turned me off from getting my PhD. I wish you the best of luck!

Nope, that was just an assumption on my part. I assumed the job field would be a little more stable than the academic one, but maybe not?

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Oh ok lol my bad

but yeah, it isn’t stable. You can find a job in psychology b/c it relates to so many things, however, getting into a PhD program is EXTREMELY competitive. Most schools have 400+ applicants only accepting 7-9 positions. Then you have all the politics to deal with once you are in. It isn’t for everyone and the Master’s program was rough enough. I think if I had gone to grad school in another program it wouldn’t have been as bad…Too bad I didn’t know I loved teaching so much or i would have gotten my master’s in teaching and had more flexibility.

 

[bookgirl32]

Oh ok lol my bad

but yeah, it isn’t stable. You can find a job in psychology b/c it relates to so many things, however, getting into a PhD program is EXTREMELY competitive. Most schools have 400+ applicants only accepting 7-9 positions. Then you have all the politics to deal with once you are in. It isn’t for everyone and the Master’s program was rough enough. I think if I had gone to grad school in another program it wouldn’t have been as bad…Too bad I didn’t know I loved teaching so much or i would have gotten my master’s in teaching and had more flexibility.

I don’t know, I went to grad school in English and if you weren’t willing to base your MA thesis on Feminist Theory or “Queer Theory” (yeah, it’s what you think, and that was actually the name), you weren’t thought to be very forward-thinking, especially if you were a woman. I wanted to base mine on Historical Criticism, and got laughed at pretty much.

But I can definitely say I don’t regret my classes that I took from some great teachers (I got about 1/3 of the way through), so I wouldn’t say I wish I hadn’t done it either. I look at it as part of my discernment, it made me realize that motherhood was definitely in my future should God grant me a marriage. (Which he did, and then motherhood almost exactly 9 mo. later, lol).

 

[Michael_Saint]

For the record, I do have a BS in biology from a Jesuit institution that sent me into years of both debt and doubt.

My dh also has a degree (sociology) from the same institution. He also had years of debt and doubt.

Our combined debt after scholarships and grants and parent loans came to $45,000.

Much of the “information” I processed in college has had little value.

Courses I took that have had lasting inherent value include…

1. Philosophy. The logic courses do encourage critical thinking. The other philosophy courses introduced us to some of the great thinkers through history. This can be valuable for anyone regardless of level of interest.

Honorable mention. Spanish language. In this country right now this would have been useful to take. I took, instead, Biblical Greek. My only real recollection was the priest always saying “How now brown cow”.

Courses that had value for me due to high interest in the subject:

1. One semester of painting. To be honest, though, I could have accomplished the same paintings by simply buying the supplies.
2. Chorale. I love singing and enjoy choral music. Most parishes are not blessed with choirs that can do choral music.

Courses that have had little value.

1. Biology. This is unfortunate. This was my focus as a pre-med. I decided in my last year that med school was not for me. Without a followup degree in science or teaching, this is mostly “gee whiz” useless knowledge. Honestly, when will I need to know that a chiropteran is a bat or the name of the 12 cranial nerves? Those are useful to people in those fields, but just trivia for people who are not in those fields.
2. Chemistry (my minor). Similar reasons as Biology…
   When will I need to know the finer points of Kreb’s cycle. Most people have probably never even heard of it.
3. Math. This was useful while I taught high schoolers after school while at college. In real life, calculus has only been used to show my children an example of higher math. High school math is more than sufficient for what most people encounter daily.
4. Social Sciences. More trivia for the most part. I did not have an appreciation at all of this field while in college.

That said, there have been happy consequences of having attended that specific college at that time.

I met dh there. We have since married and had five children. We have endured great tragedy. We have learned vastly more about our faith than either of us learned at the Jesuit institution via “homeschooling”. That newly cemented faith was instrumental in surviving the tragedy.

Had I not gone there, I would have met someone to marry. I would have likely had children. Still, I firmly believe that what came to pass was what God had planned for us.

So, the $45000 did not amount to much educationally. It did allow dh and I to meet.

Bingo, dranzal, on this and the last post. Finally, someone who is helping me to make my point. By the way, do you believe the education of your children is going to be better since you have a degree?

 

[Michael_Saint]

I’m fully aware of analogy, thanks. My major, in my possibly unnecessary education b/c I am now a stay at home mom, was English. We kind of had to know what it was. My point is, there’s not a lot of parallel. The similarity outweighs the dissimilarity in the parallel you’re trying to draw.

In the use of analogy, it is still valid if the dissimilarity is “greater” than the similarity. Like I said, you do not really understand the art of analogy.

And who is to define “greater” anyway?

 

[bookgirl32]

In the use of analogy, it is still valid if the dissimilarity is “greater” than the similarity. Like I said, you do not really understand the art of analogy.

And who is to define “greater” anyway?

Even if it is a valid analogy does not mean it is helping you prove your point. It can be valid, and used to draw attention to the dissimilarity.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Even if it is a valid analogy does not mean it is helping you prove your point. It can be valid, and used to draw attention to the dissimilarity.

It tends to draw one towards the dissimilarity when they are looking for it as a way to discount the validity of the analogy which points towards the similarity.

 

[dranzal]

Bingo, dranzal, on this and the last post. Finally, someone who is helping me to make my point. By the way, do you believe the education of your children is going to be better since you have a degree?

Not at all. On the contrary, my experience and that of my dh will hopefully demonstrate to the children (and nosy extended family) that college is not the only route. We will definitely encourage them to follow whatever they feel is their calling.

What I failed to mention in my previous post is that I did attend graduate school. I completed everything required for a Master of Secondary Education except 2 graduate level biologies. Having completed an undergrad degree in biology, it was becoming increasingly difficult to find graduate biology courses I had not already taken. Then we relocated and I let the matter drop.

It would shock many educators to know that many homeschoolers do not plan to require their children to learn history, geography, and science in great detail.

Our position (as stated in my original post) is that people retain that in which they are interested.

If junior has no interest in European civilization, he will not retain it and forcing detail memorization will be both a colossal waste of time and a substantial damper on his desire to learn.

However, if junior is fascinated by the topic, he will eat it up. He will ask for more.

Our current system graduates children who know very little about a whole lot.

These homeschoolers will know a great deal about the topics in which they are interested. Surprisingly, they will retain about as much about everything else as the “educated” school graduates. The obvious difference is that they will know so much more about certain topics.

The fact that dh and I have degrees at this point only serves to lend credibility to our assertion that we should be able to teach our own children. I don’t consider it a requirement, but some (the ones graduating the illiterates) consider it their business.

Dh’s story: Having obtained his bachelor of sociology, he tried several minimum wage jobs such as: meat peddling, cell-phone reprogramming, doing orders at a bakery, etc. These jobs were insufficient to pay off student loans just for himself. We talked and he decided to join the USAF. Here is an adult with a degree going in to boot camp and treated like a child just to get a decent job.

Once he was done with boot camp and training, he was stationed at Maxwell AFB as a computer programmer. The training he had received included an Associates in programming. Now THAT is useful!

While we enjoyed the ambience inherent to military life, the pay is about 1/3 to 1/4 what he could get as a programmer outside the military. After his 4 years were done, he got out and has continued programming. He is currently programming for Carnival Cruise Lines. He will tell anyone that his sociology degree was a complete waste and that the only benefit of having attended that college was the development of our eventual family.

 

[Rach620]

I know this thread is 12 pages in, but I thought I’d contribute my two cents on the OP…
**

• Is the purpose of college only to increase the amount of money you will make in your career?

**Nope! We’ve lost sight of it in the last few decades as college has become the “new high school” and not much more than advanced technical training, but I would say that the purpose of college is to produce educated students. I personally think we should go back to the days in which undergraduate education was strictly focused on the arts and sciences.

Business school? Really? For years people learned accountancy, marketing and public relations on the job, either after high school or after a solid liberal education in which they learned the great books and the great ideas of history. So the goal of college isn’t a fatter paycheck, but education. Because we are created in the image of God as rational, social creatures, education forms part of many people’s vocations.
**

• Is learning about the world God created an intrinsically worthy pursuit?

**Of course it is! As long as we keep things in perspective (ie, theology remains the queen of the sciences, with philosophy as her handmaiden), using our God-given talents and abilities to study His creation is part of being human.

** - Is the enjoyment of learning enough reason to want to continue schooling?

**It depends on the person. I would say that “enjoyment of learning” can help indicate one’s vocation. So if a person particularly enjoys reading, writing and studying a certain area, and excels at it, it could be an indication that they are called to use their gifts and talents in that area. Our own wants and desires should not come before God’s plan for us, though.
**

• Would most people quit school after high school if there were no monetary advantage in continuing? (in this case college would probably cost less too)

**I would say so. That’s how it used to be, anyways…
**

• Would fewer women wish to continue schooling if they could be assured they would never have to provide for themselves?

**I’m not sure. I think there are a lot of factors in the increased numbers of students going to college and graduate school. Part of it could be what one of my profs calls the “bubble of arrested adolescence”. Kids just aren’t ready to ‘grow up’ after high school these days–in many ways it seems to be the default path to head to college right after graduation. If you don’t, it’s almost looked-down upon and people think you are going to be vastly less successful. It’s a no win situation.

** - Is extra education worth the cost if the benefits it provides are not monetary?

**Yes. Just because the world doesn’t recognize a particular vocation (in this case, an academic one) of value and doesn’t reward it with monetary benefits doesn’t mean it’s not a worthy pursuit! Of course one must exercise prudence in their discernment of this vocation, but it shouldn’t be abandoned because of lack of monetary benefits. I would say that the other benefits which profs of mine have recognized far outweigh the drawbacks of a low salary.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Bingo, dranzal, on this and the last post. Finally, someone who is helping me to make my point. By the way, do you believe the education of your children is going to be better since you have a degree?

I know you addressed Dranzal and not me, but I would like to answer this since I am a little older than her and my oldest child is also older than hers. We home educate our children through eighth grade, then we enroll them in a Catholic high school. (That’s our plan at this point, subject to change based on available finances.) Even though I did not officially homeschool for highschool, I tutored my child for high school biology.

My oldest child struggled with high school biology. While I wasn’t a biology major, I have a B.S. and I took biology and chemistry classes in college. (The Kreb’s cycle is fascinating. ) Because I knew both the material and my child, I could help “translate” the teacher’s notes and book into language my child could understand it. Even when we payed others to educate our child, I played a part in his education.

Why did my son need biology in his Catholic high school? Does studying biology, chemistry, physiology and other sciences matter for anyone? Yes, it matters. God gives every human both a soul and a body. While trying to take care of the human body, lots of people waste lots of money on scams and "snake oil"because they are scientifically illiterate. I have probably saved as much money as my parents spent on my college education. It paid off for my parents too. As my eldery parents’ bodies failed, what I knew came in very useful in helping to care for them. In addition to caring for children, stay at home moms often play major roles in caring for elderly family members.​

We live in a time of medical and scientific advances. If God gives a Catholic man or woman a gift for understanding science, we must use that gift to help witness Christ’s love to the world. We risk being marginalized and ignored if we can not speak of Christ’s love in scientific language to a secular world. Catholics (and Catholic moral theologians) who don’t know how to read scientific research papers are at a great disadvantage. Our Catholic faith embraces the “theology of the body”, which is about far more than sexuality. It is about love made manifest in the flesh. The Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us.

 

[bookgirl32]

It tends to draw one towards the dissimilarity when they are looking for it as a way to discount the validity of the analogy which points towards the similarity.

So if an analogy is so subjective, isn’t a risk to use it?

 

[Michael_Saint]

So if an analogy is so subjective, isn’t a risk to use it?

Yes, it’s a huge risk, and that is why I generally don’t use analogies - because instead of openly and honestly considering the argument I am trying to make, they just do what you did, and I get nowhere.

 

[bookgirl32]

Yes, it’s a huge risk, and that is why I generally don’t use analogies - because instead of openly and honestly considering the argument I am trying to make, they just do what you did, and I get nowhere.

I see your point. I do think that a single man can have insight on dating, marriage, and everything else. But you have to go about it in the right way, because what you haven’t had is the experience, which can come off making you sound completely unsympathetic to the hardships, which sounds like you think that what you’re saying should be easy, and why can’t they just do it. I know it’s not what you MEAN, but it can come off that way.

I think you DO have good insights, and you’re realized that further theological study does, absolutely, tie to real life situations. I debate sometimes what gives me more insight, prayer, or recently reading “The Spiritual Life” with my spiritual advisor, or studying Ignatius, I guess there’s no need to put one over the other.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I see your point. I do think that a single man can have insight on dating, marriage, and everything else. But you have to go about it in the right way, because what you haven’t had is the experience, which can come off making you sound completely unsympathetic to the hardships, which sounds like you think that what you’re saying should be easy, and why can’t they just do it. I know it’s not what you MEAN, but it can come off that way.

I think you DO have good insights, and you’re realized that further theological study does, absolutely, tie to real life situations. I debate sometimes what gives me more insight, prayer, or recently reading “The Spiritual Life” with my spiritual advisor, or studying Ignatius, I guess there’s no need to put one over the other.

Thank you for making the effort to see the point I was trying to make.

And thank you again for your compliments. Yes, I do have some good insights, which is why JP2 Bible School has me teaching Theology of the Body.

Don’t worry - I don’t come across the same way with them as I have here.

And I suppose you are right, that perhaps I lack sympathy because I haven’t “been there, done that”. It’s probably easier said than done, though I have had experiences with difficult situations, and remaining single all this time is a cross that is none too light, I must say.

Actually, the greatest grace that will come out of my study of theology is not going to be the credentials (the whole reason I got into it in the first place), but the deeper I have grown spiritually. I mean, the Wade before I started at Steubenville and the Wade now (halfway through the program) is like night and day (though I have a long way to go still).

And you know, now that I think about it, if a woman grew spiritually the way I have due to receiving an education similiar to mine, I would have to say whatever she spent was well worth it! How about that statement for a shocker!

 

[bookgirl32]

Thank you for making the effort to see the point I was trying to make.

And thank you again for your compliments. Yes, I do have some good insights, which is why JP2 Bible School has me teaching Theology of the Body.

Have always wanted to study it more, but somehow it’s always fallen to other studies. Hopefully I’ll get to it soon.

Don’t worry - I don’t come across the same way with them as I have here.

We all come across the wrong way here sometimes.

And I suppose you are right, that perhaps I lack sympathy because I haven’t “been there, done that”. It’s probably easier said than done, though I have had experiences with difficult situations, and remaining single all this time is a cross that is none too light, I must say.

Not at all, I was single for 29 years, remember. Pregnancy is a really touchy subject, and there is no way you will ever have the experience. As beautiful a thing as it is, there are SO MANY hardships attached to it. Personally (only personally) I have to say that pregnancy was the absolute hardest and most spiritually trying experience of my life so far, single life didn’t even remotely come close. But that is just me, and why I am sooooooo defensive of women who have gone through it.

Remember, too, that regardless of whether or not it is RIGHT to feel this way, you’ll never find a woman who has experienced pregnancy that will have much patience with a man speaking unsympathetically about it, or someone who has never been pregnant, for that matter.

Actually, the greatest grace that will come out of my study of theology is not going to be the credentials (the whole reason I got into it in the first place), but the deeper I have grown spiritually. I mean, the Wade before I started at Steubenville and the Wade now (halfway through the program) is like night and day (though I have a long way to go still).

So, remember this when you’re trying to figure out if a stay at home mom with a degree makes any sense .

And you know, now that I think about it, if a woman grew spiritually the way I have due to receiving an education similiar to mine, I would have to say whatever she spent was well worth it! How about that statement for a shocker!

 

[Michael_Saint]

Yeah, THAT’S the icon I was looking for! Couldn’t find it, and was too busy to fish around for it.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Yeah, THAT’S the icon I was looking for! Couldn’t find it, and was too busy to fish around for it.

We disagree again. I believe the following icon is more appropriate:

And you know, now that I think about it, **if a woman grew spiritually the way I have due to receiving an education similiar to mine, I would have to say whatever she spent was well worth it! **How about that statement for a shocker!