The vanishing male

[whatevergirl]

I agree. This reminds me of the thread awhile back that asserted boys and men who peed while sitting were somehow “less male” than those who stood up.

Ridiculous!

I missed that one!

 

[whatevergirl]

I think that the main reason for people to wear bike helmets nowadays is that car drivers are not careful and often don’t see past the end of their hood, and sometimes, they’re just plain defiant against the law.

In the old days (back when I was a kid), car drivers respected traffic lights, stop signs, and other rules of the road, and they watched out for kids on bikes and tried to avoid hitting them. Nowadays, drivers are likely to be texting, on the cell phone, having dinner, and listening to loud music–all at once. The poor biker doesn’t have a chance.

Yes, a kid on a bike getting hit with a car will probably be terribly injured in his/her body, and be lucky to survive. But at least if he/she is wearing a helmet, his/her brain may be left intact and he/she will not emerge a totally different person. Body injuries are awful, but brain injuries are devastating because they change the injured person into a different person.

If an adult chooses not to wear a helmet, fine. But don’t do this to your kid. There is nothing un-masculine about safety. When you think about it, what’s one of the first rules of military combat? WEAR YOUR HELMET AT ALL TIMES!

I totally agree, Cat. I can’t even believe safety is being brought up as a negative, here, frankly in this thread.

 

[Cat]

I do agree with the OP that artificial birth control is the origin of a lot of the family problems in the U.S. When men don’t have to worry about making women pregnant, they can have sex with any woman they want, including women who aren’t married to them.

And when legalized abortion makes it possible to sweep away any “oops”, then there is even more sexual freedom.

So it makes sense to me that we need to try in any way possible to stop these two great evils.

However, I do think that there is a lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

I and others have already mentioned the stereotype of the “active” boy. Not all boys are active.

I think a lot of the generalizations about girls are also wrong. There are many girls who have a lot of excess energy. The pastor of the church I attended when my daughters were young called my older daughter an “Energizer Bunny.” She was full of pizzazz from the day she was conceived.

A lot of women athletes talk about being “hyper” as young girls, and their parents got them involved with sports to give them a place to get rid of their excess energy.

Safety is not something that is “feminine.” A lot of men and boys die doing stupid, unsafe things. What good is “macho” when the boy or man you love is lying in a coffin?

There are many reasons why women work. Yes, of course many women work because they are materialistic and want all the good things of life. But many work because they have to. Many women marry a man who does not have a high-paying job (e.g., a janitor or a school-teacher). People can talk about the nobility of living “poor,” but it really gets hard when you can’t even afford to pay for basic expenses. Does this mean that a woman should never marry a “poor” man? Of course not. But I’m guessing that a lot of women don’t think about such things when they fall in love.

For the last several decades, our federal, state, and local governments have taxed the bejeebers out of families (think about the “marriage penalty” build into the federal income tax). If the government would let families KEEP more of their income instead of sucking it out of them, it’s possible that at least one parent could stay home with the children. Not likely to happen, though.

Also, one reason why women work is that the divorce rate in this country is at 50%. A wise woman makes sure that she has a way of providing for herself in the event that she becomes one of the 50% who divorce. Even the best marriages break up. The Church certainly isn’t providing for these women, and government welfare is just a trap that keeps a woman and her children mired in poverty.

I think the comments about female teachers show a very bitter spirit. Read historical books–it’s obvious that throughout American history, most of the schoolteachers were women. It’s not the women who are “demasculinizing” boys in the public schools, it’s the foolish laws (often passed by men) that deprive a teacher of the ability to adequately discipline unruly boys and maintain order in the classroom. I read that there is to be a new law in the State of Indiana that makes a teacher immune from lawsuits if he/she acts in the best interests of her classroom in a discipline situation. Good for the Hoosier state.

At this point in history, I honestly don’t think it’s likely that the U.S. will do an about-face and return to the good-old-days when men were men and women were cute. I think we’re too far gone in the U.S. So it’s best to stop moaning and groaning about what used to be and instead, within our own families work on raising well-balanced children who are comfortable and confident in their roles as men and women.

 

[ac_claire]

I think that the OP’s much-mocked point about bike helmets was a poor attempt at giving specific examples of the trend/shift in the cluture (the “feminization” if you will) that he’s trying to discuss in this thread. It’s a clumsy example, although (I think) I know what he was trying to get across. If I may, I suggest we don’t turn that one example into a straw man to beat up in place of discussing the broader (*very much *broader ) topic of the OP.

 

[whatevergirl]

*lol, agree claire.

I agree with Cat’s assessment above. And truly, it is what it is…it’s important to know how we arrived here, but now that we’ve discussed how we have arrived here…what do we do now, is the more important question. My dh and I don’t get caught up in the trappings of modern society. We both work, but my husband is very much the head of household. We raise our kids, in a very confusing world, as best as we can with Catholic ideals and principles. We teach our son to take responsibility for his actions, likewise, we teach our daughter the same. We want both of our kids to go to college…not just our son. We believe in putting God first, and we teach our kids this.

To lament of what is, won’t solve anything. How we as Catholics can change the world for the better, is one child at a time, through our own families. I know that our world seems to be marginalizing men…but, as a mom of a young man…it’s my job to train him up, and his dad’s job to train him up to go out and be a strong man of character. It takes patience, balance, and most importantly an adherence to God’s teachings, to raise kids up to be who God created them to be. I don’t think we have time in this life to point fingers, we have to busy for Christ, because we don’t know how much time we have here, to be honest.

I don’t get caught up in the what is…I am more caught up in …how can my kids make a positive difference for Christ in this world, given the ‘what is.’ That’s how I see it…*

 

[Norseman82]

I agree. This reminds me of the thread awhile back that asserted boys and men who peed while sitting were somehow “less male” than those who stood up.

Ridiculous!

Who is more masculine, a male who who pees standing up wearing a bike helmet, or a male who pees sitting down without a bike helmet?

I miss BamaRider…

 

[Norseman82]

So here is my opinion - It’s not going to be popular but read through it - Women have too much power.

Schools are run nearly 90 percent by women. As such, they teach to little girls. They stick boys in chairs for eight hours a day and require them to be still. They pop pills in their mouth if they squirm, wiggle or disrupt. Then they kick them out when they are older. 20 Years ago schools had physical education/recess an average of 1.5 hours per day which boys need! Today, my son get 30 minutes on some days and none on others with a weekly average of around 15 minutes per day. You say it didn’t happen 20 years ago and women ran the schools then! True enough but there has been a concerted effort to teach to little girls in the past 20 years to the detriment of little boys. I am not saying we need to teach to girls less don’t get me wrong. However, we need to teach to boys MORE!!

Boys now grow up, disrupt, get frustrated and don’t attend college where women now outnumber men almost 2 to 1. Those educated women then enter the work force and have dibs on all the good jobs, have better success in government as well as business. Men are entering trades at a rate non seen in 25 years. Those are the only jobs they are qualified to do!

My father, a criminal defense attorney, has told me for years that he believes terrible life circumstances usually start with a single bad decision. Usually that decision is drugs or alcohol but there are plenty of other bad decisions that could make the point.

So to the above problem I believe it started with a single bad decision - ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL!

That’s my premise…Any takers?

It may or may not be related to ABC, but when I see some of the responses that males get when trying to find wives, is it surprising we’re losing males from Church?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=365041

 

[Bluegoat]

I think that the OP’s much-mocked point about bike helmets was a poor attempt at giving specific examples of the trend/shift in the cluture (the “feminization” if you will) that he’s trying to discuss in this thread. It’s a clumsy example, although (I think) I know what he was trying to get across. If I may, I suggest we don’t turn that one example into a straw man to beat up in place of discussing the broader (*very much *broader ) topic of the OP.

Yes, I agree, it was trying to point to a larger cultural trend. One that is very negative. However, I don’t see that it is especially linked to masculinity. Maybe I am missing something?

 

[Catholic90]

Who is more masculine, a male who who pees standing up wearing a bike helmet, or a male who pees sitting down without a bike helmet?

I miss BamaRider…

:bowdown:
That is hysterical!!

In my book, the one who is more masculine and wins MUCH FAVOR in my book is the one who leaves LESS MESS!!

 

[Ailina]

So here is my opinion - It’s not going to be popular but read through it - Women have too much power.

Schools are run nearly 90 percent by women. As such, they teach to little girls. They stick boys in chairs for eight hours a day and require them to be still. They pop pills in their mouth if they squirm, wiggle or disrupt. Then they kick them out when they are older. 20 Years ago schools had physical education/recess an average of 1.5 hours per day which boys need! Today, my son get 30 minutes on some days and none on others with a weekly average of around 15 minutes per day. You say it didn’t happen 20 years ago and women ran the schools then! True enough but there has been a concerted effort to teach to little girls in the past 20 years to the detriment of little boys. I am not saying we need to teach to girls less don’t get me wrong. However, we need to teach to boys MORE!!

Boys now grow up, disrupt, get frustrated and don’t attend college where women now outnumber men almost 2 to 1. Those educated women then enter the work force and have dibs on all the good jobs, have better success in government as well as business. Men are entering trades at a rate non seen in 25 years. Those are the only jobs they are qualified to do!

My father, a criminal defense attorney, has told me for years that he believes terrible life circumstances usually start with a single bad decision. Usually that decision is drugs or alcohol but there are plenty of other bad decisions that could make the point.

So to the above problem I believe it started with a single bad decision - ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL!

That’s my premise…Any takers?

Is it the vanishing MALE or vanishing MEN? I would like to know where the vanishing MEN are, personally. With the irresponsible porn-induced lifestyle pushed by permanently adolescent-minded males such Hugh Hefner (whose magazine and influence pre-dated the Women’s movement), is it any wonder that our husbands grew up confused?

With such adolescent-minded men, who then think nothing of leaving their wives for a new playmate, the women then learn they cannot rely on men. So they teach their daughters the importance of getting an education and work skills to support themselves in case their men ever leave them too. Because it happens a lot, too often (and always has happened. Lots of abandoned wives in the good old days too, you know).

I am concerned for my sons, who are growing up in this culture where predatory sex appears to be the norm for both males and females. I am concerned for my daughter and the mixed messages she is receiving, about sexual power being a new kind of power, when in fact it is just an illusion and there is no power behind it at all.

(And I must say that I don’t think there is anything wrong with working in the Trades, because that is real, honest work that requires a solid set of skills; only in North America are the trades looked down upon).

 

[deepsouthpapist]

You got lucky. I guess you have never seen what can happen when an unprotected head hits the ground from a height of 4 feet. I have. It isn’t pretty. Brain damage can result. I was not willing to risk that with my kids! Neither were my neighbors.

As far as playing rough…some kids like to play rough, and that is fine. Not all boys like to. Some girls do like to. Don’t generalize. I have 3 boys. 1 likes to play rough. The other 2 do not. My youngest absolutely HATES PE, team sports, and anything physical. He always has. His dad would try to wrestly with him when he was little, and he HATED it. Instead, he has books and books filled with sketches, cartoons, poems, and short stories he has written over the years. He also prefers singing in the choir, drama, drawing, and writing (he is writing the novel currently).

Nothing wrong with that!

Good for you and your kids! Most boys play rough and there is nothing wrong with it. I wouldn’t force a boy to play rough but I don’t stop it either. The point I making is this - we don’t need to baby our little boys. They don’t get to be strong by being wrapped in bubble wrap their entire childhood. And please excuse me for saying but you sound very much like a mother, not a father.

I learned why it was wrong to hit women from my dad - The rough play established limits and physical boundaries. I KNOW it hurts when you do this or that as my father clearly demonstrated! Your son that didn’t like it had lower limits, some have higher. That’s fine. What is important is that they LEARN those limits. Your husband taught your son where his limits are physically even though he didn’t like the rough play. Later on, he will be a gentle spirit with his wife, as will your other boys.

I could drop my own son off a roof and he wouldn’t care! (I would never do that, please don’t email me). His limits are higher, but he’s learned where his physical limits are and why it’s important.

Your instinct is likely to sit your son down, talk with him about why it is wrong to hit people, girls and women in particular. You might even ask him to read a book or talk to an abused woman. Good ideas all.

However, none has more impact than a dad willing to wrestle with his son or brothers playing rough, which generally speaking women hate. They also generally speaking aren’t big fans of contact sports for their sons, which is another way of teaching limits and boundaries (along with other things).

Those things the son remembers for a lifetime and don’t require a conversation or a “teachable moment” or some squishy lesson from a female teacher.

Those lessons, among others, come from their fathers.

 

[Ailina]

I have a disdain for the way I see society treating our boys. I won’t apologize for that. What you are reading is frustration. I consider myself an active father and I am trying to raise my son with some self respect and that’s hard to do in a female dominated squishy, let’s talk it out kinda world. Nope. Won’t apologize.

Little boys need male heroes, ones that are called on to save the day, not only physically but emotionally as well. They need to be taught to be relied upon when the chips are down when they grow up. This happens through dad’s letting boys make mistakes when they are young when consequences are low. By letting the boy ride a bike without five layers of clothes and $60.00 helmet. They need to be taught a type of courage and strength that will allow them to lead their own families one day, most importantly leading them to Christ. They need to have the type of inner core that helps them understand that they may be asked to lay down their own life for their families one day if necessary. They must have the courage to do so without flinching. They need to be able to teach that inner strength to the next generation when they grow up.

You tell me where there is a woman that can teach all that and I’ll put my son on a bus tomorrow. The fact is it can’t and shouldn’t be taught by momma’s or female teachers.

Boys learn physical limits and how to treat a woman through wrestling with their dad and watching how he treats his mother. This ain’t taught through a series of conversations with momma.

Boys learn physical strength by engaging in sports, not video game baby sitters.

Boys learn physical courage by watching their dad’s and uncles and brothers line up and say yes when their country calls, not engaging in conversation with the enemy and hoping diplomacy works eventually.

Boys learn strength by watching their dad defend his family from the garbage on TV, the sexualization of children in magazines and books and shutting off the **** filled internet. He gets it too by his father insisting on respect to his elders - yes m’amm and no sir should be the norm.

He watches his dad insist his family knows Christ and seeks Him out every Sunday in church.

He learns all of this without a single conversation being had with dad by and large and with no further explanation. But he gets it and he grows up and passes it on.

Nope. Won’t apologize.

Well, you better have a conversation with my ex, because he has abandoned his family, and is teaching our sons NONE of those things. He is stuck in adolescent-boy mode with a fascination with Internet Porn, and so it is up to me to try and teach my boys what is right and wrong. Since I was never on the Pill and was even a stay at home mom until I had to go to work, it can’t be my fault, can it?

Maybe it was Sister Mary Margaret’s fault; she was the principal at the ex’s elementary school, and ruled the joint with a mighty iron fist (or strap, since that was allowed in those days).

 

[deepsouthpapist]

*lol, agree claire.

I agree with Cat’s assessment above. And truly, it is what it is…it’s important to know how we arrived here, but now that we’ve discussed how we have arrived here…what do we do now, is the more important question. My dh and I don’t get caught up in the trappings of modern society. We both work, but my husband is very much the head of household. We raise our kids, in a very confusing world, as best as we can with Catholic ideals and principles. We teach our son to take responsibility for his actions, likewise, we teach our daughter the same. We want both of our kids to go to college…not just our son. We believe in putting God first, and we teach our kids this.

To lament of what is, won’t solve anything. How we as Catholics can change the world for the better, is one child at a time, through our own families. I know that our world seems to be marginalizing men…but, as a mom of a young man…it’s my job to train him up, and his dad’s job to train him up to go out and be a strong man of character. It takes patience, balance, and most importantly an adherence to God’s teachings, to raise kids up to be who God created them to be. I don’t think we have time in this life to point fingers, we have to busy for Christ, because we don’t know how much time we have here, to be honest.

I don’t get caught up in the what is…I am more caught up in …how can my kids make a positive difference for Christ in this world, given the ‘what is.’ That’s how I see it…*

Yep, only worry about what is, that’s right…Except that worrying about what “was” is what helped women get catapulted into the mainstream of modern business and society in general. I am sure there were many men who said EXACTLY what you just said to their wives and daughters! “Don’t worry about it honey, you can’t change it, just leave it alone.” Feels good to say it from your vantage point I’m sure. However, from my vantage point of raising a son, your comments are ridiculous and in some ways offensive.

Change is always possible. It is also possible to bring about positive change and seek Christ at the same time.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Well, you better have a conversation with my ex, because he has abandoned his family, and is teaching our sons NONE of those things. He is stuck in adolescent-boy mode, and so it is up to me to try and teach my boys what is right and wrong. Since I was never on the Pill, it can’t be my fault, can it?

Not blaming you, please understand that. I am truly sorry if there was something I posted that offended you. You husband on the other hand should be strapped into a portable toilet and rolled down a hill!

 

[whatevergirl]

*I’m a devout Catholic and so is my husband, papist…please do not insult me. We are good parents, who try our best to follow the Lord, daily. You are in no place to judge me. *

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Is it the vanishing MALE or vanishing MEN? I would like to know where the vanishing MEN are, personally. With the irresponsible porn-induced lifestyle pushed by permanently adolescent-minded males such Hugh Hefner (whose magazine and influence pre-dated the Women’s movement), is it any wonder that our husbands grew up confused?

With such adolescent-minded men, who then think nothing of leaving their wives for a new playmate, the women then learn they cannot rely on men. So they teach their daughters the importance of getting an education and work skills to support themselves in case their men ever leave them too. Because it happens a lot, too often (and always has happened. Lots of abandoned wives in the good old days too, you know).

I am concerned for my sons, who are growing up in this culture where predatory sex appears to be the norm for both males and females. I am concerned for my daughter and the mixed messages she is receiving, about sexual power being a new kind of power, when in fact it is just an illusion and there is no power behind it at all.

(And I must say that I don’t think there is anything wrong with working in the Trades, because that is real, honest work that requires a solid set of skills; only in North America are the trades looked down upon).

Yuck! I hate that there is so much right in your post. I wish it weren’t that way but it is…I’ll pray for you to have strength. You ain’t the problem! Your husband should be strung up by his toes and taught a lesson.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Who is more masculine, a male who who pees standing up wearing a bike helmet, or a male who pees sitting down without a bike helmet?

I miss BamaRider…

Easy answer - the man who stands up and pees off his front porch!

 

[TeresaAnn]

I guess I live in one of those unusual places too (called Canada). Mother of four roughhousing, well rounded boys here who do get a lot of recess time, PE class and have a couple of male teachers at their elementary school. The highschoolers have many actually.

All of them even play Ugga ugga FOOTBALL !

And their father hasn’t been around in any way worthwhile for most of their lives.

 

[Catholic90]

Easy answer - the man who stands up and pees off his front porch!

Oh, that is just nasty - off the porch. Then the dog has to re-mark that area, and the whole area just gets brown and nasty. If the man wants to pee somewhere other than the toilet, let it be in the shower!

 

[JimG]

I think that the OP’s much-mocked point about bike helmets was a poor attempt at giving specific examples of the trend/shift in the cluture (the “feminization” if you will) that he’s trying to discuss in this thread. It’s a clumsy example, although (I think) I know what he was trying to get across. If I may, I suggest we don’t turn that one example into a straw man to beat up in place of discussing the broader (*very much *broader ) topic of the OP.

My brothers and I rode our bikes all over the neighborhood at a time when bike helmets were not yet invented. Yes, we had some crashes, from which we learned what not to do. I think the point was that you cannot wholly deprive a boy of the ability to take some physical risks without also depriving him of the ability to develop physical courage.