The vanishing male

[deepsouthpapist]

I never claimed that it was.

Perhaps I am taking your post too seriously, but it sounds to me like you are ridiculing me, mainly because of the use of the word, “paleeze” and the rolled eyes.

I don’t care how macho you want your boys to be. If you train them to make fun of and ridicule others, including little 8th grade girls who did the best they could 40 years ago to do a “study,” then you are training them to be miscreants. You can call it “manliness” if you want. But kids who make fun of other kids are behaving violently. Eventually the violent words will become violent actions, and hopefully, they will end up in prison where there is no such thing as a real man.

The best way to raise up boys and girls is to have respect for others. That is both masculine and feminine.

I am ridiculing the fact that you threw out an 8th grade newspaper article as evidence of anything at all! I am sorry but that has nothing to do with masculine anything. That’s just plain silly.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

*I’m a devout Catholic and so is my husband, papist…please do not insult me. We are good parents, who try our best to follow the Lord, daily. You are in no place to judge me. *

I am not judging you, sorry if it feels that way…

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Oh, that is just nasty - off the porch. Then the dog has to re-mark that area, and the whole area just gets brown and nasty. If the man wants to pee somewhere other than the toilet, let it be in the shower!

Wait should he stand outside the shower and pee in the shower or stand in the shower and pee down his leg? This is all very confusing…now back to the originally scheduled program.

 

[Catholic90]

Wait should he stand outside the shower and pee in the shower or stand in the shower and pee down his leg? This is all very confusing…now back to the originally scheduled program.

INSIDE the shower and aiming down the drain! (sheesh, basic shower-peeing etiquette - everybody knows that).

 

[Catholic90]

My brothers and I rode our bikes all over the neighborhood at a time when bike helmets were not yet invented. Yes, we had some crashes, from which we learned what not to do. I think the point was that you cannot wholly deprive a boy of the ability to take some physical risks without also depriving him of the ability to develop physical courage.

“Some physical risks” yes. Physical risks that can cause brain damage…thanks, but I will try to minimize those, if you don’t mind.

 

[Catholic90]

I never claimed that it was.

Perhaps I am taking your post too seriously, but it sounds to me like you are ridiculing me, mainly because of the use of the word, “paleeze” and the rolled eyes.

I don’t care how macho you want your boys to be. If you train them to make fun of and ridicule others, including little 8th grade girls who did the best they could 40 years ago to do a “study,” then you are training them to be miscreants. You can call it “manliness” if you want. But kids who make fun of other kids are behaving violently. Eventually the violent words will become violent actions, and hopefully, they will end up in prison where there is no such thing as a real man.

The best way to raise up boys and girls is to have respect for others. That is both masculine and feminine.

I am ridiculing the fact that you threw out an 8th grade newspaper article as evidence of anything at all! I am sorry but that has nothing to do with masculine anything. That’s just plain silly.

Papist, the fact that you even ADMIT that you are ridiculing Cat is deplorable. Calling her silly doesn’t help your cause at all.

The fact is…you know nothing about what she wrote in 8th grade. You know nothing of her observations and experiences and what she did. Yet you feel it is OK to go on a BB and call her silly.

I find that offensive. And I find that any potential valid points you may make negated by your obviously prejucial attitude.

It appears to me you may be raising bullies. If you teach your kids (by example at the very least, which you did here - even calling her ideas silly, when in reality you know NOTHING about it) to laugh at other’s ideas or actions and make fun of them, you are creating a bully. Nobody likes a bully. Being “manly” does not equal being a jerk.

Be careful, Papist. I think you are walking a fine line between raising “tough boys” and bullies.

 

[BrokenFortress]

I think that there are some valid points raised in this thread, but I do also agree that there are some very broad generalizations going on that are not correct and can easily do more hurt than good.

I do take offense at calling women teachers “squishy”. I’m sorry, but I do not think that you can state this generalization and make it valid. Perhaps with some of the teachers you (OP) have dealt with have been as you call, “squishy”, but to say that all women teachers are such is just plain offending. Perhaps for some teachers, they have to resort to their means of discipline due to rules in their school. Rules, I’m sure, brought on by not only mothers, but fathers as well.

Also, I do wonder whether or not this feminism would not have been started with the voracity if in the past, in history, males had held women with more respect. Instead of shoving them off as inferior and not allowing them basic rights, they should have seen women as also God’s good creation and held them with the respect that they deserve. I think that if, in history, there had been more respect, there would not have been this uprising of women to go against their male counterparts.

So, I do think that it is rather conceited to put the blame on women in running all the men off. I think that the blame is equal male and female. One thing happened, which led into another, and it spiraled out of control.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Papist, the fact that you even ADMIT that you are ridiculing Cat is deplorable. Calling her silly doesn’t help your cause at all.

The fact is…you know nothing about what she wrote in 8th grade. You know nothing of her observations and experiences and what she did. Yet you feel it is OK to go on a BB and call her silly.

I find that offensive. And I find that any potential valid points you may make negated by your obviously prejucial attitude.

It appears to me you may be raising bullies. If you teach your kids (by example at the very least, which you did here - even calling her ideas silly, when in reality you know NOTHING about it) to laugh at other’s ideas or actions and make fun of them, you are creating a bully. Nobody likes a bully. Being “manly” does not equal being a jerk.

Be careful, Papist. I think you are walking a fine line between raising “tough boys” and bullies.

Again, it has nothing to do with her personally! Please keep that in mind. You can say it seems like I am raising bullies based on things I have written. I vehemently disagree with you, but you are free to make that claim and association. The same goes for me. I am sorry but I find I would have to suspend reality to find credibility in an 8th grade newspaper article with regards to how much time is spent in physical excercise across the board. That type of claim would require the knowledge of more than one school, more than one district of schools and more than one state with relative to secondary schools. It would also need to be judged against what was happening before. Was their an increase? Decrease? You see my point. The point she was making using a 40 year newspaper article for school isn’t credible. The fact she would bring it up as evidence for the discussion here is, well, plain silly.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

I think that there are some valid points raised in this thread, but I do also agree that there are some very broad generalizations going on that are not correct and can easily do more hurt than good.

I do take offense at calling women teachers “squishy”. I’m sorry, but I do not think that you can state this generalization and make it valid. Perhaps with some of the teachers you (OP) have dealt with have been as you call, “squishy”, but to say that all women teachers are such is just plain offending. Perhaps for some teachers, they have to resort to their means of discipline due to rules in their school. Rules, I’m sure, brought on by not only mothers, but fathers as well.

Also, I do wonder whether or not this feminism would not have been started with the voracity if in the past, in history, males had held women with more respect. Instead of shoving them off as inferior and not allowing them basic rights, they should have seen women as also God’s good creation and held them with the respect that they deserve. I think that if, in history, there had been more respect, there would not have been this uprising of women to go against their male counterparts.

So, I do think that it is rather conceited to put the blame on women in running all the men off. I think that the blame is equal male and female. One thing happened, which led into another, and it spiraled out of control.

You are exactly right on a couple of points. First, you are 100 percent correct in saying the reason women needed more attention in schools and in society in general was due to their mistreatment by men for a very long time. That is a given. Many of the policies available there today are there to protect the interest of women, which is great. However, in so doing, we have neglected the interest of boys completely. We raise them now to be like little girls. They’re not! So we are not creating another problen

 

[shannyk]

Is it the vanishing MALE or vanishing MEN? I would like to know where the vanishing MEN are, personally. With the irresponsible porn-induced lifestyle pushed by permanently adolescent-minded males such Hugh Hefner (whose magazine and influence pre-dated the Women’s movement), is it any wonder that our husbands grew up confused?

With such adolescent-minded men, who then think nothing of leaving their wives for a new playmate, the women then learn they cannot rely on men. So they teach their daughters the importance of getting an education and work skills to support themselves in case their men ever leave them too. Because it happens a lot, too often (and always has happened. Lots of abandoned wives in the good old days too, you know).

I am concerned for my sons, who are growing up in this culture where predatory sex appears to be the norm for both males and females. I am concerned for my daughter and the mixed messages she is receiving, about sexual power being a new kind of power, when in fact it is just an illusion and there is no power behind it at all.

(And I must say that I don’t think there is anything wrong with working in the Trades, because that is real, honest work that requires a solid set of skills; only in North America are the trades looked down upon).

Highly agree!

deepsouth I do think you bring up some interesting points…you may be over generalizing but I can appreciate what you’re getting at. Just reading along here, interested. Be nice lest your points get lost

I’d really love for my kids to be in single sex classrooms at school. I think we’ve totally lost and appreciation for the inherent differences in the sexes and how we take in and use information. It would benefit boys and girls immensely IMHO.

I’m also of the opinion that we girls can’t be afraid to let guys have things that are just for guys, just as we have things that are just for girls. It’s OK, we don’t have to twist ourselves into equality like human pretzels by trying to do everything they do to make ourselves feel powerful. We’re already equal in the eyes of God, and that’s what should count. How many women are content with that these days though? Not many.

I agree it has everything to do with ABC and abortion. Woman have far too much power when it comes to abortion, having the ‘right’ to kill a man’s child without even his knowledge. That really is tyranny over men.

Lets not take the blame game too far though. There is blame to be placed at the foot of ALL of us for what we have done or chosen not to do.

 

[Ailina]

’I agree it has everything to do with ABC and abortion. Woman have far too much power when it comes to abortion, having the ‘right’ to kill a man’s child without even his knowledge. That really is tyranny over men."

You are aware that many men abandon their pregnant girlfriends or coerce them into having abortions, are you not? Or coerce them into having premarital sex in the first place. Again, the influence of porn and it’s emphasis on sex for fun with no responsibility.

So which is it? Birth control or porn? Perhaps the two go hand in hand. Look at the billions of dollars spent on porn. Look at how it has spilled into regular daytime television, music, advertising. Do you think this billion dollar industry was started by women?

 

[shannyk]

’I agree it has everything to do with ABC and abortion. Woman have far too much power when it comes to abortion, having the ‘right’ to kill a man’s child without even his knowledge. That really is tyranny over men."

You are aware that many men abandon their pregnant girlfriends or coerce them into having abortions, are you not? Or coerce them into having premarital sex in the first place.

Sure, I’m aware of this I’m also aware that this is not the norm and in most cases women have sex willingly. I’m also aware that most women aren’t coerced into having abortions and many do not even tell their boyfriends etc., and yes many of said boyfriends do not care either way anyway. Please, lets not blame men for all this. Woman are not hopeless helpless victims. It’s an insult to women to suggest as much.

It’s also true that a woman has the ‘right’ here in the US to have an abortion without ever notifying the father she’s even pregnant. If she does and he objects to the abortion he has almost no legal recourse. Forcing or coercing a man to be the father of a dead child is no better than coercing a woman to be the mother of one.

Again, the influence of porn and it’s emphasis on sex for fun with no responsibility.

I agree with this. Porn and men AND women’s willingness to participate in it is disgusting and disordered.

So which is it? Birth control or porn? Perhaps the two go hand in hand. Look at the billions of dollars spent on porn. Look at how it has spilled into regular daytime television, music, advertising. Do you think this billion dollar industry was started by women?

honestly? I think it’s a business venture that without men and women willingly participating, wouldn’t exist.

 

[Rico_S]

I see most are on board with the idea that ABC is ultimately responsible for men being stripped of their…manliness. But I haven’t seen an argument as to why or how. Can someone connect the dots for me? Perhaps someone has in this thread already, and I am missing it, or perhaps i am a bit dense and just don’t understand (more likely).

 

[jman507]

I see most are on board with the idea that ABC is ultimately responsible for men being stripped of their…manliness. But I haven’t seen an argument as to why or how. Can someone connect the dots for me? Perhaps someone has in this thread already, and I am missing it, or perhaps i am a bit dense and just don’t understand (more likely).

I would say that ABC was a part of it, but there was a general movement in that direction due to a lot of forces. ABC allowed sex to be helped to further disconnect sex with the possibility of children. You also had a furthering centrality to marriage based on love, and less on family. No fault divorce made it easier to get divorced. There was also less of a need for children in marriage. As one increases their economic capacity, there tends to be a decrease in the number of children, but because children are economically costly. Before children may have helped economically, especially in agriculture. All of this put more pressure on women to achieve economically. Women could live on a single income, so this allowed single parenthood more likely. There was also a movement away from agriculture and manufacturing, which makes it easier for women to enter the career field.

So I would not argue that ABC exactly caused all of this, but was one aspect of it. All and all, I don’t think we need to go back to the way it was; I don’t think there is a really good way to do it either. I think we ought to resist the idea that we need to achieve more and more economically. We do need some pull back with an emphasis on both genders to give more time to family.

 

[Cat]

I see most are on board with the idea that ABC is ultimately responsible for men being stripped of their…manliness. But I haven’t seen an argument as to why or how. Can someone connect the dots for me? Perhaps someone has in this thread already, and I am missing it, or perhaps i am a bit dense and just don’t understand (more likely).

The main reason why ABC strips a man of his manliness is that it frees him from the responsibility of taking care of any children that he fathers, because it separates the act of love (sex) from the possibility of creating a new life.

In the past, if a man had sex with a woman outside of marriage and made her pregnant, in most cases, he had to step up and marry the woman and take care of her and his child.

She had no other options, other than giving up the baby for adoption (which many women did). Back then, most women didn’t work outside the home, and many places would not hire a mother with children. If the man didn’t do his duty, the woman he violated would be destitute, and people would look DOWN on him for being a bounder and a cad.

Most men shouldered their responsibilities and did the right thing by the woman. And although many of these marriages were rocky, many of them succeeded. I’m sure lots of you know families where the oldest child was born six months after the wedding, and wasn’t a premie.

A man who fathers a child and then provides for the mother and his child has a sense of pride in himself–he knows that he is doing the right thing, the “manly” thing, even though it curtails his “freedom.” However, most men, even though they think they want to be wild and free, actually prefer to rise above their animal natures and be loving husbands and fathers and sacrifice themselves for those who are weaker. (That’s one reason why men still volunteer for military service, policework, and fire fighting.)

With the advent of ABC, it became possible for a man to have sex with a woman and have no chance of fathering a child. This meant that the man could sink to his animal nature and have sex with impunity, with as many partners as he wished, and with no fear of being held accountable. The man loses his “manliness” and becomes a mere animal, controlled not by his brain and his soul, but by his genitals and hormones. He is essentially stripped of manhood and turned into a stud horse. However, the ability to father offspring has been taken away from him, so he’s a sterile stud.

Women tend to despise men like this, who have sex with anyone and everyone who comes along, and this further denudes a man of his manliness. To a woman, a true man is one who accepts his responsibilities when it comes to her and children. A man who simply goes to bed with her is not a man at all, but is little more than a dildo or vibrator with a body attached. She could buy such a thing online at certain sites.

And children have no respect for a man who does not fulfil his responsibilities as a father. Again, more of his masculinity is taken away from him by little ones who cry out, “Where are you, Daddy? Why won’t you take care of me?”

 

[Bluegoat]

So I would not argue that ABC exactly caused all of this, but was one aspect of it. All and all, I don’t think we need to go back to the way it was; I don’t think there is a really good way to do it either. I think we ought to resist the idea that we need to achieve more and more economically. We do need some pull back with an emphasis on both genders to give more time to family.

Actually, I’m inclined to think economics is related to a lot of these problems much more so than sexual issues or gender issues. In fact, I think those things have been caused by economic sin. Sex is so big because it now makes big money. Birth control and small families allow huge materialism and make money.

The police shows are right - follow the money.

It makes me want to drop out and become a hippy.

 

[mrpathetic]

You may want to check out the work of Paul Coughlin. He is one of the few contemporary Christian authors I can actually read. He writes extensively on the demise of the Christian male - and what can be done, to reverse the trend.

crosswalk.com/blogs/PCoughlin/

His seminal work is entitled “No More Christian Nice Guy”. I strongly recommend you pick up a copy. You can get it online, or at most Christian bookstores.

He lists a whole host of issues that have led to the emasculization of Christian men today. And he has a detailed plan, on how to bring masculinity into the Christian faith.

 

[Ailina]

I see most are on board with the idea that ABC is ultimately responsible for men being stripped of their…manliness. But I haven’t seen an argument as to why or how. Can someone connect the dots for me? Perhaps someone has in this thread already, and I am missing it, or perhaps i am a bit dense and just don’t understand (more likely).

Maybe some are equating women barefoot, silent and pregnant in the kitchen with manliness? Perhaps that is why birth control is being blamed in this thread. There are a lot of issues behind the current lack of manliness, so blaming just one thing seems overly simple. Blaming women because they are able to get an education and a job and forego having children for a few years seems rather sexist.

I wonder how good the good old days really were for a lot of women, considering things like domestic violence were never discussed and were considered nobody’s business. People would look away and ignore such things because when a woman married, she “made her bed and had to sleep in it”. The man was the king of the castle and all that, and maybe he didn’t treat his wife the way she ought to have treated. I know a lot of older women who have told me about those “good old days” not being so good and being trapped in some pretty awful situations.

 

[Ailina]

honestly? I think it’s a business venture that without men and women willingly participating, wouldn’t exist.

I think a lot of women who participate in this are under the impression that they have sexual power over men, and that it is something new and therefore progressive. It is, of course, an illusion.

Many women looking for love will use sex to find it also. There is also a lot of pressure for women to give in and have sex while dating in today’s world, just as there was when I was young back in the late 1970s/early 1980s. Maybe even more so today than then, according to my young nieces.

 

[shannyk]

I see most are on board with the idea that ABC is ultimately responsible for men being stripped of their…manliness. But I haven’t seen an argument as to why or how. Can someone connect the dots for me? Perhaps someone has in this thread already, and I am missing it, or perhaps i am a bit dense and just don’t understand (more likely).

ABC is a main culprit because it ruins the relationship and dynamic between man and woman as God designed it. It also strips women of their ‘womanliness’ for the same reason. We are who we are because of what the other person isn’t. We’re made to compliment each other. ABC throws everything out of whack. And here we are…

And of course at the root of this perceived ‘need’ for ABC is human fallen nature and pride.