The Virgin Mary was she always so?

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Hello,
FWIW, in the OT, an uncle is referred to as “father’s brother”, an aunt as “father’s sister”, and so on. So it is possible to be quite specific about how two particular people are related, even without using the words uncle, cousin, etc.
And it gets really burdensome really quick. To describe a cousin would be something like “son of the brother of my father”. To describe a little more extended would be something like “daughter of the son of the sister of my mother”. Pretty soon you need a roadmap to find a second or third cousin. And it is very unpoetic and cumbersome to a work of literature. And since the mindset of the ancient Jewish people tended to be tribal in nature, they were all kin, so it was much easier to use brothers and sisters for all the familial relations.
 
Through all my research I have found no proof of Mary’s supposed perpetual virginity forwarded by the RCC.

No proof can truly be forwarded because this is another “developed” doctrine.

God’s Word is abundantly clear on this matter, and as the earliest and surest witness, it must be believed IMO.

Even as a Catholic, and now as a non-Catholic, I always wanted an explanation why if Mary had sex with her lawful husband…
  • what does it change the Gospel or the Atonement one bit?
  • what business is it of ours what Mary did privately with her husband?
I have never received a substantial response to either question.

I personally find making dogmas about a woman’s private sex life totally outside of the Apostolic witness…and even a little disturbing.

You need to review what original sin is and how it is transmitted.
 
Even as a Catholic, and now as a non-Catholic, I always wanted an explanation why if Mary had sex with her lawful husband…
  • what does it change the Gospel or the Atonement one bit?
  • what business is it of ours what Mary did privately with her husband?
    I have never received a substantial response to either question
    .
I personally find making dogmas about a woman’s private sex life totally outside of the Apostolic witness…and even a little disturbing.

The dogma of Mary’s perpetual viriginity is important because it demonstrates the absolute holiness and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Just as men were killed who touched the pure and incorruptible ark of the old covenant, so must the ark which bore infinitely more holy contents be set apart and consecrated. If Mary were not a perpetual Virgin, it would imply Jesus was less holy than manna, a staff, and stone tablets.
 
Another Question for everyone. if the wages of sin is death and Mary never committed a sin then wouldn’t she live forever? Also when in Luke 18:18,19 it says "And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” if Mary was perfect and without sin wouldn’t she also be considered good? so then is Jesus equilating Mary with God or saying that Mary was not good, perfect, sinless.

so far as i’ve read the reply posted the best answer i have gotten is the many uses of the word brother. however are ya’ll reading too far into the words? if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John knew that Jesus had no biological brothers wouldn’t you think that it makes more sense to spell it out instead of allowing controversy. i know one of the answer to this will be “well they didn’t know it would be such a big deal and that those Protestants would be so ignorant.” i would answer is not all scripture God breathed (2 tim 3:16) and God knowing the future would be able to see the contraversy to come could easily have inspired the writers to spell out exactly what was meant by brother and sister.
 
Another Question for everyone. if the wages of sin is death and Mary never committed a sin then wouldn’t she live forever? Also when in Luke 18:18,19 it says "And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” if Mary was perfect and without sin wouldn’t she also be considered good? so then is Jesus equilating Mary with God or saying that Mary was not good, perfect, sinless.
Mary’s perfection is due to Jesus Christ. Remember in the OT, the Ark is pure because it contain the tablets of the law, Aaron’s rod.

God created Mary without sin so that He could make a perfect Mother for His Son. The Word made flesh. If Mary had sin, then the Devil has conquer God because he allow Mary to sin.

Yet this is not so. Even the Bible we see Mary being obedient to God’s will. It was through her obedience to God that Jesus came into the Word, “Be it done unto me according to your Word.”

Mary being sinless doesn’t make her equal to God. It was God who saved her by preserving her from sin and it was from her own will that she had remain a virgin.

The Apostolic Fathers affirm this whom they received from the lips of the Apostles perhaps even Mary herself. I thought came into mind that Luke received the infancy Gospel account from Mary herself.
 
Another Question for everyone. if the wages of sin is death and Mary never committed a sin then wouldn’t she live forever?
Babies die. The mentally impaired die. They have never committed any sin. And of course, Jesus died.
Also when in Luke 18:18,19 it says "And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” if Mary was perfect and without sin wouldn’t she also be considered good? so then is Jesus equilating Mary with God or saying that Mary was not good, perfect, sinless.
What about the angels who did not rebel? Are they not every bit as perfect and sinless as we teach that Mary is? And yet they are not included in “no one is good except God alone” either. So you are reading too much into the phrase.
 
The dogma of Mary’s perpetual viriginity is important because it demonstrates the absolute holiness and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
So if Mary had sex with her husband per the command of God in Scripture, Jesus would not have been God anymore?
Just as men were killed who touched the pure and incorruptible ark of the old covenant, so must the ark which bore infinitely more holy contents be set apart and consecrated.
So those that touched Mary while she was preganant with Christ, or afterwards because she was consecrated like the Ark, were killed by God?

Can you cite any references to this phenomena?
If Mary were not a perpetual Virgin, it would imply Jesus was less holy than manna, a staff, and stone tablets.
So sex within marriage is not holy in God’s eyes?

Are marital relations between a husband and wife dirty?

I am recieving incredible messages in your post…

 
Why do you want proof?
Because the Faith should be bound in true Apostolic doctrine, not possible pious inventions.
St. Jerome himself consider Mary remain a Virgin during all her life.
Most people centuries after the fact were taught that.

Jerome was no Apostle.
You need to double check you research.
I did. No proof.

Only a developed sense of the dirtiness of marital sex in the ancient world.

Scripture says otherwise.
The Gospel especially in Luke’s account about Jesus, Joseph, and Mary in the Temple mention no other children. At this age Jesus was already twelve.
The text says that they thought Jesus was among the family and friends they travelled with. Specific mention is not reasonable to require.

How does an only child go unaccounted for by their parents for days?

What we have here is a grand case of “Home Alone.”
Now think. If Jesus had brothers and sisters, they would be there. Yet they are not.
No. You assume they were not.

We must take the whole counsel of God’s Word together.
Those mention in Gospels that state the brothers and sisters of the Jesus are Jesus cousins.
No. The text says they were His brothers and sisters.

The Greek has a word for “cousin” and it was specifically NOT used.

 
If Jesus has brothers and sisters, then why did he give His mother to the apostle John? The fact that his “brothers” did not believe has nothing to do with their relationship with their “mother.”

God Bless,
Michael
 
The dogma of Mary’s perpetual viriginity is important because it demonstrates the absolute holiness and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Just as men were killed who touched the pure and incorruptible ark of the old covenant, so must the ark which bore infinitely more holy contents be set apart and consecrated. If Mary were not a perpetual Virgin, it would imply Jesus was less holy than manna, a staff, and stone tablets.
Very well stated. How can anyone worship Jesus as God and believe that Mary’s womb bore someone less. Not very typical to the Hebrew Scripture’s accounts of the Holy of Holies…🙂
 
No. The text says they were His brothers and sisters.

You must agree that at best they were Jesus’ half brothers and sisters. Different Father, remember?? So at face value the text cannot be taken literally. So start there. They are not his brothers and sisters. And how could Mary bare more children with another man when Jesus’ heavenly Father was still alive?? And He always is.

The text should say half brothers and half sisters. Already a red flag…teachccd:confused: :confused:
 
Most people centuries after the fact were taught that.

What about the incarnation?? the Trinity?? The canon of New Testament Scripture?? The hypostatic nature of Christ??

Where are all of these terms found in the Bible?? Where is the term BIBLE found in the Bible?? OOPS! Maybe there is an authoritative Church left by Christ inspired by the Holy Spirit to remind us of Christ’s full revelation of God. Could that possibly be??
 
Anonymous_1, forget it. From the tenor of his remarks in the majority of his posts, Atemi comes across as a anti-Catholic ex-Catholic who, having abandoned his Faith, now seeks to show us how stupid we are for still believing. That is why he has a post average of about 16 per day, he is obsessed and can’t keep away.

I came across this attitude with women who were trying to justify having had an abortion. They must then try to convince everyone that abortion is sometimes a positive and necessary choice to make.

Just read some other Atemi’s other posts and you will see what I mean. You can’t convince someone who has set their mind against what you know to be the Truth. All we can do is pray for him.
 
Another Question for everyone. if the wages of sin is death and Mary never committed a sin then wouldn’t she live forever?
First of all, that refers to your state after life on earth, and second of all, Mary was taken up into heaven. If you want to google it, google the Assumption of Mary.
 
And how could Mary bare more children with another man when Jesus’ heavenly Father was still alive?? And He always is.
Exactly. You know, Atemi, what we call a situation where a woman bears children to two different fathers - when the father of her first child is
a) still alive and
b) has not divorced her or dissolved the relationship in any other way.

Equally tellingly, you know what we call a woman who does such a thing.

Mary bore a child to the Holy Spirit. He was (and still is) very much alive afterwards, and gave no indication that she was free to bear children to any other. Not even Joseph.
 
if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John knew that Jesus had no biological brothers wouldn’t you think that it makes more sense to spell it out instead of allowing controversy.
First off, things already known to the first century Jews/Christians didn’t need to be spelled out. I may be writing about computers and in the 21st century I may not make mention of a hard drive. Anyone who owns one know that your information is stored on a hard drive. But 2000 years from now someone might read my writings and hear that there were items called hard drives. But because it was not included in my text it could be doubted but as you can see, shouldn’t.

Secondly, Why didn’t Jesus come out and say," I am fully God and fully man."?? The doctrine of the Trinity is very implicit in Scripture and explicit to some degree especially in the Gospel of John. But the Church defined the Trinity as it does all dogma so as to place all Christians on the same page. If you think that the Trinitarian doctrine is in full view you haven’t spoken with a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ve been around the block with them for the last eight years. Their New World Translation which claims inspiration as all Bibles do, is tweaked to prove that Jesus is not God. Sola Scriptura at its best.

The Church that handed you your Bible and that you put your trust in (you have to whether you like it or not) says that there are 27 books in the New Testament and that Mary remained a perpetual virgin. If you throw away the authority of the Church to define Mary then you MUST throw away the authority of the Church that acknowledged your Sacred Scripture. Sorry, can’t pick and choose here…teachccd:)
 
First of all, that refers to your state after life on earth, and second of all, Mary was taken up into heaven. If you want to google it, google the Assumption of Mary.
My best for you in RCIA. Did you enter the Catholic Church this Easter or are you still in RCIA??

Point of information. The Church doesn’t take a stand on whether or not Mary died prior to her Assumption. The Church teaches that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. Whether it was immediately after she died or not is not defined.

God Bless you and welcome…teachccd:)
 
Through all my research I have found no proof of Mary’s supposed perpetual virginity forwarded by the RCC.

No proof can truly be forwarded because this is another “developed” doctrine.

God’s Word is abundantly clear on this matter, and as the earliest and surest witness, it must be believed IMO.

Even as a Catholic, and now as a non-Catholic, I always wanted an explanation why if Mary had sex with her lawful husband…
  • what does it change the Gospel or the Atonement one bit?
  • what business is it of ours what Mary did privately with her husband?
I have never received a substantial response to either question.

I personally find making dogmas about a woman’s private sex life totally outside of the Apostolic witness…and even a little disturbing.

Atemi-

I suppose that in the grand scheme of salvation for you and me, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary means very little.

However, I would put it to you this way (and I am assuming you are male and married - if not make your own adjustments): when you fell in love with your wife, didn’t you want to know every little detail about her? What she thought? Where she was from? What her favorite movies and books and music were? What her family is like?

What about falling in love with Jesus? Don’t you want to know everything about him?

Marian doctrines are part of what we know about the Savior that we love.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
No. The text says they were His brothers and sisters.

The Greek has a word for “cousin” and it was specifically NOT used.
Atemi-

I can clear up your misunderstanding on this point.

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”

The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of “brothers” to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.)

In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English “brother” has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.

You might say they transliterated instead of translated, importing the Jewish idiom into the Greek Bible. They took an exact equivalent of the Hebrew word for “brother” and did not use* adelphos* in one place (for sons of the same parents), and anepsios in another (for cousins). This same usage was employed by the writers of the New Testament and passed into English translations of the Bible. To determine what “brethren” or “brother” or “sister” means in any one verse, we have to look at the context. When we do that, we see that insuperable problems arise if we assume that Mary had children other than Jesus.

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive a son, she asked, “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?” (Luke 1:34). From the Church’s earliest days, as the Fathers interpreted this Bible passage, Mary’s question was taken to mean that she had made a vow of lifelong virginity, even in marriage. (This was not common, but neither was it unheard of.) If she had not taken such a vow, the question would make no sense.

Mary knew how babies are made (otherwise she wouldn’t have asked the question she did). If she had anticipated having children in the normal way and did not intend to maintain a vow of virginity, she would hardly have to ask “how” she was to have a child, since conceiving a child in the “normal” way would be expected by a newlywed wife. Her question makes sense only if there was an apparent (but not a real) conflict between keeping a vow of virginity and acceding to the angel’s request. A careful look at the New Testament shows that Mary kept her vow of virginity and never had any children other than Jesus.

When Jesus was found in the Temple at age twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary.” In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren.” If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

Also, the attitude taken by the “brethren of the Lord” implies they are his elders. In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies (remember, Palestine is in Asia), older sons gave advice to younger, but younger seldom gave advice to older—it was considered disrespectful to do so. But we find Jesus’ “brethren” saying to him that Galilee was no place for him and that he should go to Judea so he could make a name for himself (John 7:3–4).

Another time, they sought to restrain him for his own benefit: “And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, ‘He is beside himself’” (Mark 3:21). This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the “brethren” were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his biological brothers, since Jesus was Mary’s “first-born” son (Luke 2:7).

Consider what happened at the foot of the cross. When he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27). The Gospels mention four of his “brethren”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
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