The Virgin Mary

[Faith101]

Booklover:

Faith, what is the purpose of your questions? Do you really want to learn what we believe or are you just looking for something else to find fault with?

The question acutally sparked in my head when someone on the forum said that the Quran is wrong about the Christians giving Mary divinity. So i thought to ask what is the relationship of Mary to a Catholic.

After your responses, I gained a greater appreciation of that verse in the Quran. Although you do not realize, Mary is given much divinity in Christianity. She is able to hear people’s prayers all over the world…a quality which God alone posesses.

We already know that you reject everything we believe so why keep asking questions? It seems a complete waste of time!

I do reject many of the things that you believe, that is true.
But there is still no harm in trying to understand something from another person’s point of view. Allah tells us that we must seek knowledge and continue learning until our death.

Alhamdulilah for Islam.

 

[Faith101]

But for Grace:

Faith101 - I believe that Genesis315 has dealt sufficently with your response to my last post.

as to Mary being the “handmaided of the Lord”

websters has

HAND’MAIDEN, n. A maid that waits at hand; a female servant or attendant.

It is a way of saying that Mary is obedient to God and does his bidding. It originates in the Gosple of Luke when the angel Gabriel told her she was to concieve Christ. It also means that she continues to act in obedience to God.

If you have a direct link to the KING…why then would you call on one of his “servants”?

You dont have to answer, i have an idea of what your response will be…but it is something to ponder.

 

[Genesis315]

Faith101:

If you have a direct link to the KING…why then would you call on one of his “servants”?

Because sometimes, in the spirit of humility, one doesn’t feel worthy to go to the King Himself (even if one is worthy).

Don’t Muslims pray for one another??? Why bother if the person can just pray for themself?

If you lived during the time of Muhammed, would you want him to pray for you?

ps: are you sure you aren’t a southern Baptist?

 

[Faith101]

Don’t Muslims pray for one another??? Why bother if the person can just pray for themself?

Yes, I as a Muslim would ask other Muslims to pray for me…but i can not, sitting her ein america, call to my sister in china and ask her to pray for me. Only God has the power to hear all our prayers simulataneously…do you know what i mean? Unless ofcourse, that you believe tthat He shares that power with saints/good people/etc.

If you lived during the time of Muhammed, would you want him to pray for you?

Ofcourse I would. But Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him, is no longer on this earth…and thus does not hear my calls (he is not all-hearing, only God is). I CAN NOT call to him now to ask him for anything. I call to his Master, God almighty.

ps: are you sure you aren’t a southern Baptist?

why, do southern baptist also insist on praying only to God?

 

[Genesis315]

Faith101:

Yes, I as a Muslim would ask other Muslims to pray for me…but i can not, sitting her ein america, call to my sister in china and ask her to pray for me. Only God has the power to hear all our prayers simulataneously…do you know what i mean? Unless ofcourse, that you believe tthat He shares that power with saints/good people/etc.

But Heaven is not China.

Ofcourse I would. But Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him, is no longer on this earth…and thus does not hear my calls (he is not all-hearing, only God is). I CAN NOT call to him now to ask him for anything. I call to his Master, God almighty.

Ahhh, but the saints are accessible. See, if Muhammed was accessible to you, you would ask him to pray for you.

why, do southern baptist also insist on praying only to God?

Because they’re whole theology has one basic tenet (as all protestant theology does): Catholics are wrong. From there, they proof-text all the doctrines they so desire.

Worship God only. To pray simply means to ask. You can ask anyone anything:thumbsup:

 

[memnoch_lover]

doctrine of the communion of saints… it means that saints( all baptized are united or in unity as one body)

The scripture says death cannot separate us from jesus. It means that when a christian dies he remains christians.

Jesus said… Loves one another as i have love you…

Therefore one of the duties of christian is to love…

To pray for someone is not bad but it is good because it shows of your concern for another , it is therefore an act of love.

This duty to pray for someone… does nor end when a christian dies because remains christian in the after life( death cannot separate me from jesus)

Therefore if i can pray for you while i am alive why not if i am already in heaven that is when i am already with God.

If i can do it why not Mary…

can mary hear all the prayers of the world?
answer possible… why? because mary is already free from the limitation of mortal body. We can never know the gifts God gave to mary. Mary is full of grace…

 

[Ghosty]

Mary does not have the power to hear all things simply by hear own power, and neither do any of the saints. They hear because God wills them to hear, as we see in Scripture. This is not ascribing to creatures that which belongs only to God; God can grant such things to anyone He wishes. We see in Scripture that the saints in Heaven can hear our prayers, so Mary can hear our prayers.

Remember also that when we pray to Mary we are not worshipping her, but simply communicating with our departed sister. We ask her to pray with us and for us, we do not ask her for special graces because she is simply a creature of God. We ask her to pray to God with us, and to pray to God for us just as you would ask your worldly sister, and we know that God lets her hear our prayers because Scriptures say so. It’s really fairly simple

God bless!

 

[But_for_Grace]

Faith101:

If you have a direct link to the KING…why then would you call on one of his “servants”?

You dont have to answer, i have an idea of what your response will be…but it is something to ponder.

Faith101 - why call on a servant? if this was mearly an earthly king, then we would need to talk about human limitations and delegation of power, but we are not talking about a human monarch, so the question remains.

The problem is linked to the very divinity of Jesus, not of Mary. If Jesus is not God then Mary is not sinless, is not evervirgin, is not assumed into heaven. The very question of Mary is linked to Christ, this is something that even most protestant christians do not understand. This is also part of what makes it hard for many to understand why catholics have devotion to Mary.

Regardless of how you look at it, Jesus was obedient to the commandments, among which is the command to honor one’s father and mother. This ultimately is the heart of the situation.

 

[fatuma]

OK wait, since Jesus (as) followed the commandments (which Muslims also believe) then that means he was respectful and obedient to his mother. I find it odd that you believe that the one you call God was obedient to a human being? And honor is not the same as obey.

wa salam

 

[iamrefreshed]

fatuma:

OK wait, since Jesus (as) followed the commandments (which Muslims also believe) then that means he was respectful and obedient to his mother. I find it odd that you believe that the one you call God was obedient to a human being? And honor is not the same as obey.

wa salam

Jesus also followed the orders of Pontius Pilate if you want to be picky. What’s your point?

Do you really want to understand or do you just want to try and shoot holes in everything?

What part of our belief that Jesus was God AND man do you not understand after hearing it a hundred times?

Ask yourself why you ask these questions. Is it a true inquisitiveness or are you just being uncharitable?

 

[fatuma]

Take a chill pill Iamrefeashed. It has always been an interest of mine the different ways that both our religions view the nature of God. This was something strange coming from my side of things since I believe that God is outside His creation and is not bound by human behavior such as obeying ones parents. I just wanted to know more about this from your side of things.

wa salam

 

[Ghosty]

God, as a man, chose to honor the same rules that He had given humanity. He served as an example of perfect obedience and charity, and loved His mother in example of how all humans should be.

God is perfect, so when He as Jesus He was a perfect man as well as being God. He showed us what the perfect man should be like, and honoring and loving one’s mother is a very important part of that.

You see, it doesn’t take away from the glory of God to say that He was a perfect man. Rather, it shows His power and glory. Remember, also, that humility is considered a virtue in Judaism and Christianity, and God is perfectly virtuous, so God is also humble. Being humble does not take away from your power, it simply means that you do not use your power to make others feel small for no reason. It means using your power when it is appropriate and needed, for righteous purposes. In the Judeo-Christian mindset, a king is a SERVANT of the people, in the same way that a shepard SERVES his sheep by protecting them. It doesn’t mean the people tell the king what to do, but it does mean that the king’s duty is to make life good for the people, to protect them, and help the nation thrive. This is service, and it is a virtue, and God is the most perfect and virtuous being. He does things for His people out of love, and protects and feeds us.

Another example is a Father, and God is our father. Doesn’t a good father work, and give his earnings to his family, to feed and clothe them? Isn’t a good father one who serves his family in this fashion, and a good family is one that serves their father in return. God is the perfect Father, and as the Son He is the perfect son as well. He serves in all capacities, because service out of love is the perfect virtue.

 

[hawk]

fatuma:

Take a chill pill Iamrefeashed. It has always been an interest of mine the different ways that both our religions view the nature of God. This was something strange coming from my side of things since I believe that God is outside His creation and is not bound by human behavior such as obeying ones parents. I just wanted to know more about this from your side of things.

wa salam

If God is outside of creation. Then what does it mean to have the “ruh” of Allah inside you?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Faith101:

Peace

The virgin Mary (may God be pleased with her), mother of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). What is a catholic’s relationship to her? I know its a vague question, but try to give a complete a response as possible.

Thanks guys

Dear Faith101;

Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about Mary’s Role as the spiritual mother of the Church…

I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

**Wholly united with her Son . . . **

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

**. . . also in her Assumption **

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

**. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace **

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

504 LG 57.
505 LG 58; cf. Jn 19:26-27.
506 LG 69.
507 LG 59.
508 LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950)S 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.
509 Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.
510 LG 53; 63.
511 LG 61.
512 LG 62.
513 LG 60.
514 LG 62.
515 Lk 1:48; Paul VI, MC 56.

continued on next post…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

…continued from prior post…

I would add the following to some of the objections/comments I’ve seen on this thread:

someone said that they ask Mary to pray WITH them, someone said FOR them…which one is correct according to the Bible

(1) Both. Catholics ask their fellow Catholics to pray for them, and also to pray with them. Catholics also believe in a communion of “saints” that extends from this world into Heaven. All who are baptised are made part of this communion - the mystical body of Christ - and as such we are united under Christ as the head of the body. This biblical description of christians as the body of christ is not simply metaphorical, but real on a spritual level, such that we can ask those people who have gone before us to pray for us, and we can pray with them to God.

a Catholic in China prays and asks Mary to pray to God for something…and so does a Catholic in America…is Mary all-hearing…that is my question

(2) Mary is not all hearing. Christ is all hearing and Mary is in Christ. Mary does not usurp God’s power or authority, but she is part of it, the shining example of discipleship that we as Catholics aspire to.

If you have a direct link to the KING…why then would you call on one of his “servants”?

(3) There is no dichotomy. It’s not an either/or situation in practice. Take the following prayer as a good example, it comes from the beginning of the mass, when Catholics ask for forgiveness from God for ways in which we may have offended Him, but includes requests for prayer to those seated around us, the saints, Mary, and the angels. Note the lack of dichotomy. We are not praying to the saints instead of God, but praying to God in union with the whole mystical body of Christ. The fallacy of false dichotomy is a common misunderstanding when discussing prayers to Mary and the saints.

I confess to Almighty God
and you my brothers and sisters
that I have sinned through my own fault,
In my thoughts and in my words,
In what I have done, and
In what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Ofcourse I would. But Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him, is no longer on this earth…and thus does not hear my calls (he is not all-hearing, only God is). I CAN NOT call to him now to ask him for anything. I call to his Master, God almighty.

(4) This is where our traditions simply differ. We believe that the connection between saint and deity in Heaven is so intimate that, to an extent saints are aware of our prayers - but not through any power of their own. So, from a Catholic perspective, Mohamed in Heaven would be able to hear your prayers to God, even if they were not directed to him, because of his proximity to God.

fatuma wrote:

This was something strange coming from my side of things since I believe that God is outside His creation and is not bound by human behavior such as obeying ones parents. I just wanted to know more about this from your side of things.

(1) We believe that God became man in Jesus Christ without losing any part of his divinity. Jesus was both fully God and fully human. As a human, Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law as set forth by God, which included the commandment to honor your father and your mother. Christ perfectly honored his father (God) by submitting to His will and becoming the perfect sacrifice; and perfectly honored his mother (Mary) by conveying upon her the singular position that she enjoys among the saints of the Church. She is our mother in a spiritual sense (rember that christians believe themselves to be part of the mystical body of Christ that was born of Mary.)

Your perspective differes in that you believe that God never entered into His creation, whereas we believe He did - through Christ - and lived a perfect example of humanity.

Peace of God the Father to you both Faith101 and Fatuma. Thank you for visiting our forum.

 

[Faith101]

Firstly, thank you for your polite explanation.

(2) Mary is not all hearing. Christ is all hearing and Mary is in Christ. Mary does not usurp God’s power or authority, but she is part of it, the shining example of discipleship that we as Catholics aspire to.

Please elaborate on this statment. You say Mary is not all-hearing but then she is because she is “in Christ.” So in the end she has part of that power and has that characteristic?

(

1. There is no dichotomy. It’s not an either/or situation in practice. Take the following prayer as a good example, it comes from the beginning of the mass, when Catholics ask for forgiveness from God for ways in which we may have offended Him, but includes requests for prayer to those seated around us, the saints, Mary, and the angels. Note the lack of dichotomy. We are not praying to the saints instead of God, but praying to God in union with the whole mystical body of Christ. The fallacy of false dichotomy is a common misunderstanding when discussing prayers to Mary and the saints.

I confess to Almighty God
and you my brothers and sisters
that I have sinned through my own fault,
In my thoughts and in my words,
In what I have done, and
In what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

This is exactly what i am talking about. You ask God for something…then turn around and ask Mary for something…regardless of what it is, you are giving her some form of divinity and power to address your prayers.

Mohamed in Heaven would be able to hear your prayers to God, even if they were not directed to him, because of his proximity to God.

Its not like the prayers are going to God through a speaker system…where anyone sitting in the near vicinity can hear them. No one, whether on this earth or in their grave, can hear the prayers of people…they just dont posses that power. In Islam, that power is only with God…but like you said…that would be another place where we differ.

again, thank you for your explanation

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Dear Faith101;

Faith101:

Firstly, thank you for your polite explanation.

You are welcome.

Faith101:

Please elaborate on this statment. You say Mary is not all-hearing but then she is because she is “in Christ.” So in the end she has part of that power and has that characteristic?

Mary is not divine. She is human. But she is in Heaven with God. As the mother of our Lord and Savior she holds a unique position in the body of Christ and can assist us through her intercessory prayer. Her ability to pray for us does not make her divine. I can pray to God on your behalf (I just did) and that does not make me divine just as it does not make Mary divine that she prays on our behalf. The fact that she can hear our prayers is a gift from God alone. Again, this does not make her divine any more than God’s gift of healing would make the recipient divine.

Faith101:

This is exactly what i am talking about. You ask God for something…then turn around and ask Mary for something…regardless of what it is, you are giving her some form of divinity and power to address your prayers.

Note that all that is asked of Mary is her prayer for us. We are not asking Mary to forgive us, only to pray for us (with us) to God.

Faith101:

Its not like the prayers are going to God through a speaker system…where anyone sitting in the near vicinity can hear them. No one, whether on this earth or in their grave, can hear the prayers of people…they just dont posses that power. In Islam, that power is only with God…but like you said…that would be another place where we differ.

All of the saints are “in christ” which speaks of a very intimate relationship. By this sort of relationship we - as Catholics - understand that the saints can hear our prayers and can intercede on our behalf. But the response to our prayers comes only from God.

Faith101:

again, thank you for your explanation.

Again, you’re welcome.

 

[BrJimC]

Im curious… how do you know Mary is in Heaven with God? This isnt in scripture.

 

[hawk]

BrJimC:

Im curious… how do you know Mary is in Heaven with God? This isnt in scripture.

Its history, surely you understand the meaning of seerah.

 

[BrJimC]

It is not history… it is something that the Church came to a conclusion on and has written about…

I asked you for where this came from and you gave me a retort. Tell me about the church writings and where they developed the idea.

This is your chance to educate me on you idea.