"THE" virgin

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Is there any significance to the reference in Isaiah’s prophecy of the virgin birth, where it references “THE” virgin, as though it is signifying a “Title” instead of saying “A” virgin as a description?

I seem to recall reading something about this in regards to the PV of Mary, but I’ve looked around and I can’t seem to find any information arguing from this perspective.

Thanks for your help.

Kelly
 
Kelly,

If memory serves, Isaiah doesn’t use the phrase “the virgin”, but rather, simply “a virgin”. (I think that the RSV-CE preserves this phrasing.)

Blessings,
G.
 
FWIW, it’s definite in the Hebrew original: “ha-almah,” “the virgin.” Ditto in the Septuagint – “he parthenos.”
 
FWIW, it’s definite in the Hebrew original: “ha-almah,” “the virgin.” Ditto in the Septuagint – “he parthenos.”
I can’t speak to the Hebrew, but the Greek is a different story. In Greek, the article ‘the’ is used to denote the subject of the phrase; in that position, it wouldn’t necessarily act as a definite article, but only as a grammatical marker. In other words, we wouldn’t presume that we must translate it as “the virgin”, but rather, simply as “[a] virgin”.
 
I can’t speak to the Hebrew, but the Greek is a different story. In Greek, the article ‘the’ is used to denote the subject of the phrase; in that position, it wouldn’t necessarily act as a definite article, but only as a grammatical marker. In other words, we wouldn’t presume that we must translate it as “the virgin”, but rather, simply as “[a] virgin”.
If I remember right Issiah is written in Hebrew… Greek was in the NT
 
The Hebrew states that ha-almah will conceive, lit. “the young woman”. In its immediate context, it’s not a prophecy of a virgin birth, but rather the timing of a natural birth that sets the timetable for the downfalls of the attacking kingdoms of Israel and Syria.

“Virgin” comes via the LXX, and that rendering is what is quoted in Matthew 1:23.
 
I can’t speak to the Hebrew, but the Greek is a different story. In Greek, the article ‘the’ is used to denote the subject of the phrase; in that position, it wouldn’t necessarily act as a definite article, but only as a grammatical marker. In other words, we wouldn’t presume that we must translate it as “the virgin”, but rather, simply as “[a] virgin”.
That’s why I said “FWIW.” I was just putting some basic information out there.
 
The Hebrew states that ha-almah will conceive, lit. “the young woman”. In its immediate context, it’s not a prophecy of a virgin birth, but rather the timing of a natural birth that sets the timetable for the downfalls of the attacking kingdoms of Israel and Syria.

“Virgin” comes via the LXX, and that rendering is what is quoted in Matthew 1:23.
Well, seeing that Mattew points to this as a prophecy of the virgin birth, I’m not really debating that, as it also could have had some other significance to the immediate context. In the sense that it is pointing to the virgin birth (via Matthew), it still seems like, in the way it’s stated, that this is a Title given to the one prophesied.

And actually, now that I think about it, if we consider THIS term “the young WOMAN”, as a Title being given, it makes it even more significant. It would be saying that it’s not just “a” young woman, but “THE” young WOMAN. What woman? “THE” woman from the Genesis prophecy!

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and The Woman.

Is it a title or am I making too much of this?

And if it is a title, what significance could this have, if any, regarding the PV of Mary.

Thanks for your help.
 
Well, seeing that Mattew points to this as a prophecy of the virgin birth, I’m not really debating that, as it also could have had some other significance to the immediate context. In the sense that it is pointing to the virgin birth (via Matthew), it still seems like, in the way it’s stated, that this is a Title given to the one prophesied.

And actually, now that I think about it, if we consider THIS term “the young WOMAN”, as a Title being given, it makes it even more significant. It would be saying that it’s not just “a” young woman, but “THE” young WOMAN. What woman? “THE” woman from the Genesis prophecy!

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and The Woman.

Is it a title or am I making too much of this?

And if it is a title, what significance could this have, if any, regarding the PV of Mary.

Thanks for your help.
Yes, you’re making too much of it. “almah” simply means “a woman of marriagable age”, i.e. a maid, maiden.

In the Hebrew, it’s not a Messianic prophecy, at least, not in its immediate context. It’s a natural pregnancy, obviously of an unknown young woman, or perhaps the young royal consort, with a child whose birth with signal the timetable towards the fall of Israel and Syria. It’s more of a prediction of national deliverance, and the birth is a marker. The name “Emmanuel” to be given to the child is Isaiah’s way of stating that God had not abandoned Judah in its time of trouble. It’s a sign, primarily for Ahaz king of Judah, who had obstinately refused to trust God to deliver his country.
 
I can’t speak to the Hebrew, but the Greek is a different story. In Greek, the article ‘the’ is used to denote the subject of the phrase; in that position, it wouldn’t necessarily act as a definite article, but only as a grammatical marker. In other words, we wouldn’t presume that we must translate it as “the virgin”, but rather, simply as “[a] virgin”.
Indeed, or “a young woman”, since virginity was not a necessary element of the term in Greek.
 
My interpretation rests on what St. Matthew the Evangelist says, not what our modern scribes say 2500 yrs. removed from the original text, in this age of infidelity. 😉
 
Yes, you’re making too much of it. “almah” simply means “a woman of marriagable age”, i.e. a maid, maiden.

In the Hebrew, it’s not a Messianic prophecy, at least, not in its immediate context. It’s a natural pregnancy, obviously of an unknown young woman, or perhaps the young royal consort, with a child whose birth with signal the timetable towards the fall of Israel and Syria. It’s more of a prediction of national deliverance, and the birth is a marker. The name “Emmanuel” to be given to the child is Isaiah’s way of stating that God had not abandoned Judah in its time of trouble. It’s a sign, primarily for Ahaz king of Judah, who had obstinately refused to trust God to deliver his country.
The point remains that from the beginning the Church (as reflected in St. Matthew’s Gospel) has interpreted the passage as the prophecy of the virginal conception of Christ in the womb of Mary. The argument originally made by St. Justin Martyr in the second century is still instructive: “If a virginal conception were not the clear, literal sense of the passage, there simply would be no question of a ‘sign.’”

The act of calling into question the certainty of biblical truths that have been dogmatically defined by the Church betrays a convergence of several Modernist attitudes identified by the Church last century. Such attitudes unfortunately have resulted in a questioning of the virginal conception in contemporary Catholic circles. This modern doubt, which obviously does not affect the status of the teaching, stems from an attempt to conduct biblical study without considering—and at times systematically rejecting—the inspired, ecclesial nature of Scripture.

Let me make clear the focus of this thread:

I’m not asking for opinions on whether Isa 7:14 is a prophecy of the virgin birth (the Church has already discerned that), nor am I focusing on the translation of the term “almah”.

Isaiah 7:14 specifically states:

THE young woman will conceive

instead of saying

A young woman conceive

By saying THE young woman, it presupposes something peculiar and specific about this particular woman distinct from just any young woman. Again, assuming this passage is referring to the virgin birth… look again and please just focus specifically on the underlined words here…

Why do you (or anyone one else here) think Isaiah 7:14 distinctly refers to this young woman as THE young woman will conceive, instead of speaking in more general terms by saying "A young woman will conceive.

It seems to me he’s pointing directly to a specific woman, THE woman… not just any woman. The implication of this is that this is a title given to the one being prophesied of, not a reference to describe what kind or type of woman it is.

I’m sorry to be so persistent about this but, as I previously stated, I have read somewhere before… that this was a Title and not just a description… in regards to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, in such a manner that not only was Mary a virgin, but THE VIRGIN. Not only physically virginal, but holy, immaculately, internally virginal.

Does any of this make sense to anyone but me?
 
My interpretation rests on what St. Matthew the Evangelist says, not what our modern scribes say 2500 yrs. removed from the original text, in this age of infidelity. 😉
Your interpretation of Matthew should always rest on Matthew, but I am not quite sure why anyone would call the current era an “age of infidelity”, as if the level of infidelity were different to that in the past.
 
Isaiah 7:14 specifically states:

THE young woman will conceive

instead of saying

A young woman conceive

By saying THE young woman, it presupposes something peculiar and specific about this particular woman distinct from just any young woman. Again, assuming this passage is referring to the virgin birth… look again and please just focus specifically on the underlined words here…
What some here have been pointing out is that it doesn’t say that.
In Hebrew, it apparently says, “הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן”.
In Greek, it says, “ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν”.
In Latin, it says, “ecce virgo concipiet et pariet filium”.

None says, “the virgin”, because none is English, and the rules of English grammar cannot be read back into texts in other languages.
Does any of this make sense to anyone but me?
What you are reading is not impossible for an almighty God, but it requires the assumption that the English text was divinely authored. That assumption is one which makes many people suspicious, not least because of things like KJV-onlyism, which, in extreme cases, manifests the belief that the Hebrew and the Greek only existed so that they could be translated into the One True Version in English.
 
The point remains that from the beginning the Church (as reflected in St. Matthew’s Gospel) has interpreted the passage as the prophecy of the virginal conception of Christ in the womb of Mary. The argument originally made by St. Justin Martyr in the second century is still instructive: “If a virginal conception were not the clear, literal sense of the passage, there simply would be no question of a ‘sign.’”

The act of calling into question the certainty of biblical truths that have been dogmatically defined by the Church betrays a convergence of several Modernist attitudes identified by the Church last century. Such attitudes unfortunately have resulted in a questioning of the virginal conception in contemporary Catholic circles. This modern doubt, which obviously does not affect the status of the teaching, stems from an attempt to conduct biblical study without considering—and at times systematically rejecting—the inspired, ecclesial nature of Scripture.
DeSanto,

If you’re going to quote a book, you should probably cite it. Your text above is a quotation from Hahn’s “Catholic For a Reason II: Scripture and the Mystery of the Mother of God.”

Hahn’s assertion about St Justin Martyr bears some scrutiny. Hahn’s not quoting Justin here – rather, he’s quoting Garrigou-Legrange, who is discussing Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho. Here’s a translation of the actual quote from the Dialogue, as found on the New Advent site:
Moreover, the prophecy, ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,’ was uttered respecting Him. For if He to whom Isaiah referred was not to be begotten of a virgin, of whom did the Holy Spirit declare, ‘Behold, the Lord Himself shall give us a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son?’ For if He also were to be begotten of sexual intercourse, like all other first-born sons, why did God say that He would give a sign which is not common to all the first-born sons? But that which is truly a sign, and which was to be made trustworthy to mankind—namely, that the first-begotten of all creation should become incarnate by the Virgin’s womb, and be a child—this he anticipated by the Spirit of prophecy, and predicted it, as I have repeated to you, in various ways; in order that, when the event should take place, it might be known as the operation of the power and will of the Maker of all things;
Notice that Justin does not address the “clear, literal sense of the passage.” Rather, he’s simply making the case that the prophecy applies to Jesus. He’s debating with a Jewish man, who claims that Isaiah 7:14 does not refer to Jesus at all. It’s not a discussion of “clear, literal senses” of Scripture; it’s a discussion of prophecy fulfillment.

A couple of points might ensue from this discussion: Justin’s take on on the text is ‘virgin’. This is not unreasonable, but it’s an interpretation of the Hebrew ‘almah’ into the Greek ‘parthenos’ – and this interpretation presumes that a ‘young, unmarried girl’ is a virgin. Second, it only addresses the use of Isaiah 7:14 in the context of messianic prophecy fulfillment (that is, in the same way that Matthew uses it). God is using it, as a prophecy to Ahaz, to convince him that God is the one in charge and He’s on Ahaz’s side, so Ahaz doesn’t need to fear other armies or turn to other nations for protection. Third, Hahn’s argument is one that rebuts denials of the virgin birth. We’re not denying the virgin birth here.
Isaiah 7:14 specifically states:
THE young woman will conceive
instead of saying
A young woman conceive
Let’s be more precise, then:

In the NAB, Isaiah 7:14 is rendered, “the young woman will conceive”. In the RSV-CE, Isaiah 7:14 is rendered, “a young woman shall conceive.”

If you want to claim that there’s a “presuppos[ition of] something peculiar and specific,” you’ll have to address the fact that the definite article ‘the’ isn’t part of all Catholic English language translations of the Bible. (Then, as Mystophilius has pointed out, you’ll need to address the implications of what the source languages – not the target language! – of this passage says.)
Why do you (or anyone one else here) think Isaiah 7:14 distinctly refers to this young woman as THE young woman will conceive, instead of speaking in more general terms by saying "A young woman will conceive.
Because Isaiah doesn’t say ‘the’. Not in all translations into English, let alone in earlier languages. 🤷
 
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