The Virtues of active Homosexual Relationships

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I am concerned about the rationalization of my beloved Homosexual brother who articulates thoughts like this. The notion is that a chaste homosexual relationship can produce virtue, once accepted then the next step is to accept an active homosexual relationship. These are some of the thoughts followed by my questions.
The Catechism says that homosexuality is disordered. If it is disordered then is it possible that if an active homosexual relationship exists that it can produce virtue and because it does it is then not disordered. Disordering would not produce virtue therefore it is not disordered since virtue can be produced.
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If a homosexual relationship is the actualization of sin, we should be able to observe the fruit of sin in every homosexual relationship and know that it was caused by that relationship. If the catechism’s characterization of these relationships is correct, it should be borne out in reality, and we should be able to see it borne out as such.
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Moral teaching is true because of the authority that articulates it says so.
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Moral teaching is true because it demonstrably upholds, supports and articulates the good and is believed because the good is objective and recognizable and the moral teaching is authoritative because of it’s relationship to the good.
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I believe that what the catechism says about homosexual relationships cannot be demonstrably observed as true. If it is true, it is not because of the nature of the teaching, but because of the nature of the authority articulating that teaching.
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I believe that the Roman Catholic Church teaches as authoritative and true because it best articulates the good, and the authority with which the teaching and it is articulated and derived from the objective goodness of the teaching. This denies that the goodness of the teaching is actually demonstrable. This represents an appeal to authority and not to the moral good.
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It appears to me that the question arises as to what is meant by Virtue? I post the Catholic Encyclopedia source…

newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm
All virtues have as their final scope to dispose man to acts conducive to his true happiness. The happiness, however, of which man is capable is twofold, namely, natural, which is attainable by man’s natural powers, and supernatural, which exceeds the capacity of unaided human nature. Since, therefore, merely natural principles of human action are inadequate to a supernatural end, it is necessary that man be endowed with supernatural powers to enable him to attain his final destiny. Now these supernatural principles are nothing else than the theological virtues.
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It appears to me that the notion of a homosexual relationship is at odds with and not producing virtue, in particular Fortitude.
Fortitude
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As temperance and its annexed virtues remove from the will hindrances to rational good arising from sensuous pleasure, so fortitude removes from the will those obstacles arising from the difficulties of doing what reason requires.
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I have attempted to formulate some questions that with response may help my Christian brother…if you have any thoughts and questions, please help…

If any relationship of whatever kind produces good fruit then by the production of it’s fruits can it be measured by evil.

Who measures those fruits and what is the end purpose of those fruits?

Can a relationship that is judged inherently evil and produce good fruits be destroyed because of the inherent evil or can it flourish?

If a relationship flourishes and produces good fruits in the natural, they are not supernatural fruits and may flourish. The flourishing is not indicative of a relationship that is not evil.

B]
Can a Homosexual live out the sex orientation and produce virtue on it’s own or in a homosexual relationship?

What is the virtue and what is the end goal or purpose of the virtue?

** Can a homosexual live in a chaste relationship with another homosexual and produce virtue?**

What is the virtue and what is the end goal or purpose of the virtue?

Help me clarify this for my Christian brother.🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
I am concerned about the rationalization of my beloved Homosexual brother who articulates thoughts like this. The notion is that a chaste homosexual relationship can produce virtue, once accepted then the next step is to accept an active homosexual relationship. These are some of the thoughts followed by my questions.
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No, No, No, No, period.
It appears to me that the question arises as to what is meant by Virtue? I post the Catholic Encyclopedia source…
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Horse feathers! Stop trying to justify this mess.
It appears to me that the notion of a homosexual relationship is at odds with and not producing virtue, in particular Fortitude.
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It is at odds with every virtue. It is grossly disordered. Evil.
I have attempted to formulate some questions that with response may help my Christian brother…if you have any thoughts and questions, please help…
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If any relationship of whatever kind produces good fruit then by the production of it’s fruits can it be measured by evil.
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What in the world are you talking about, you are making no sense whatever.
Who measures those fruits and what is the end purpose of those fruits?
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What are you talking about???
Can a relationship that is judged inherently evil and produce good fruits be destroyed because of the inherent evil or can it flourish?
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You should have no relationship with this person at all. Such relationships are evil and produce nothing but evil fruits, more and more evil.
If a relationship flourishes and produces good fruits in the natural, they are not supernatural fruits and may flourish. The flourishing is not indicative of a relationship that is not evil.
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Stop trying to be your own moral theologian. Get some advice from a good priest.
Can a Homosexual live out the sex orientation and produce virtue on it’s own or in a homosexual relationship?
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I can’t believe a good Catholic could even consider such nonesense.
** Can a homosexual live in a chaste relationship with another homosexual and produce virtue?**

No. They are an occassion of sin to each other and that is a mortal sin. How can you even think it?
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What is the virtue and what is the end goal or purpose of the virtue?
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There is no virtue here, what are saying. Its madness.

My friend, you have posted this stuff before. If you won’t read the Catechism like I suggested why are still trying to justify this person.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
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A “chaste homosexual relationship” is an oxymoron. If it’s chaste it doesn’t involve sex since active homosexual behavior is a mortal sin. If it doesn’t involve sex, it’s not a homosexual relationship. A relationship between to people of the same sex that doesn’t involve sex is a friendship.
 
livingwordunity said:
A “chaste homosexual relationship” is an oxymoron. If it’s chaste it doesn’t involve sex. If it doesn’t involve sex, it’s not a homosexual relationship. A relationship between to people of the same sex that doesn’t involve sex is a friendship.
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Kissing isn’t sex. Or hugging. Or holding hands.

I win!
 
Regular_Atheist said:
Kissing isn’t sex. Or hugging. Or holding hands.
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You’re right, it’s not sex. “Friendship” is not just “lack of sex”.

Anyway, there are many forms of having an imperfect relationship with someone. A man and woman can get married for all the wrong reasons, do all the wrong things, and treat marriage in a distorted way as well. Distorted, meaning different from the way God intended it to be. Homosexuality is just one way in which relationships between human beings can be distorted.
No human is fully evil, though. Gays are human, created in God’s image and likeness, and can, therefore, produce good fruits, and be great people. Do not get this confused: don’t think that just because a homosexual can do good things, means that homosexuality, itself, is okay or somehow responsible for it… the two are not related! A man should not crave a man nor a woman crave a woman in a romantic manner. But homosexuality, neither, defines a human person. “We are not the sum of our failures and weakness, we are the sum of the Father’s love for us.” JPII.
Of course your Christian brother can produce good fruits, he is a son of our Lord! It doesn’t mean that he is sinless, or that his sins aren’t THAT BAD; it means he’s not perfect, we all have a ways to go… It means he’s still holding back giving himself entirely to God, he’s still ruled by earthly passions. And so are we all…
God bless you and your love for your brother, and the Christian community.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
No, No, No, No, period.

Horse feathers! Stop trying to justify this mess.

It is at odds with every virtue. It is grossly disordered. Evil.

What in the world are you talking about, you are making no sense whatever.

What are you talking about???

You should have no relationship with this person at all. Such relationships are evil and produce nothing but evil fruits, more and more evil.

Stop trying to be your own moral theologian. Get some advice from a good priest.

I can’t believe a good Catholic could even consider such nonesense.

No. They are an occassion of sin to each other and that is a mortal sin. How can you even think it?

There is no virtue here, what are saying. Its madness.

My friend, you have posted this stuff before. If you won’t read the Catechism like I suggested why are still trying to justify this person.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
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Sigh… you didn’t understand his post at all… he isn’t trying to justify anything, he is looking for how to respectfully respond to his brother to show how is in err. Those questions and statements at the end were supposed to be read as the questions as if by his homosexual brother, and the statements as his own response to his brother. Don’t jump the gun on supplying an answer, otherwise you too will produce bad fruit.

To the OP:
Your brother seems to miss part of the logic of why it is considered disordered. If your brother agrees that any sexual relations outside of marriage (whether unmarried or extramarital) is wrong, and if he believes that homosexuals cannot marry by the nature of what marriage is, then he should be able to piece together that homosexual relations are wrong because it is sexual relations outside of marriage. And that does not produce virtue. As per your example, Fortitude would be one virtue that it breaks, but I would go on to say that it also breaks the other virtues Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Patience, Humility, and Kindness. Some may argue that it does in fact produce the virtue of Kindness because a homosexual relationship can bring about compassion, understanding (empathy), and friendship, but it is a skewed and corrupted kindness. The real kindness would come from someone who takes up their cross and lives a chaste life instead of engaging in homosexual relations.

That is my 2 cents. If you would like my explanation on why it breaks the other virtues, just ask.
 
LemmeThink4aSec said:
You’re right, it’s not sex. “Friendship” is not just “lack of sex”.
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I very rarely see male friends kissing each other. I don’t know where you live, though, but even if it was a country where kissing between friends is socially acceptable, there’s a difference between friendly kisses (say between a child and a mother) and kisses that imply more of a sexual/romantic relationship.
bzkoss236 said:
I would disagree, unless the man is in an invalid marriage and doesn’t actually want to spend the rest of his life committed to his wife.
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So, you believe that a woman would be fine with her husband kissing another woman, unless he didn’t want to be her husband? What?
 
Regular_Atheist said:
So, you believe that a woman would be fine with her husband kissing another woman, unless he didn’t want to be her husband? What?
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Looking back, I misread your response because I misread the question the other person asked and retract my statement. I apologize. I read the question as a “do you think the wife would mind” instead of “do you think the wife would be fine with”, of which your answer was no. Dyslexia really sucks sometimes.
 
Regular_Atheist said:
Kissing isn’t sex. Or hugging. Or holding hands.

I win!
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These are imperfections even in a heterosexual relationship where the two couples are not married. Saints have gone as far to say that a man and woman shouldn’t even be together alone in the same room before marriage. To quote St. Jerome:
never sit alone together, without a witness to your words and actions.
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Clearly there are at least some small elements of sexual immorality even in seemingly benign acts such as the ones that you are describing.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
No, No, No, No, period.

Horse feathers! Stop trying to justify this mess.

It is at odds with every virtue. It is grossly disordered. Evil.

What in the world are you talking about, you are making no sense whatever.

What are you talking about???

You should have no relationship with this person at all. Such relationships are evil and produce nothing but evil fruits, more and more evil.

Stop trying to be your own moral theologian. Get some advice from a good priest.

I can’t believe a good Catholic could even consider such nonesense.
** Can a homosexual live in a chaste relationship with another homosexual and produce virtue?**
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Click to expand...
 
livingwordunity said:
A “chaste homosexual relationship” is an oxymoron. If it’s chaste it doesn’t involve sex since active homosexual behavior is a mortal sin. If it doesn’t involve sex, it’s not a homosexual relationship. A relationship between to people of the same sex that doesn’t involve sex is a friendship.
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Living,

I shall share this with my misinformed Christian brother.
 
LemmeThink4aSec said:
You’re right, it’s not sex. “Friendship” is not just “lack of sex”.

Anyway, there are many forms of having an imperfect relationship with someone. A man and woman can get married for all the wrong reasons, do all the wrong things, and treat marriage in a distorted way as well. Distorted, meaning different from the way God intended it to be. Homosexuality is just one way in which relationships between human beings can be distorted.
No human is fully evil, though. Gays are human, created in God’s image and likeness, and can, therefore, produce good fruits, and be great people. Do not get this confused: don’t think that just because a homosexual can do good things, means that homosexuality, itself, is okay or somehow responsible for it… the two are not related! A man should not crave a man nor a woman crave a woman in a romantic manner. But homosexuality, neither, defines a human person. “We are not the sum of our failures and weakness, we are the sum of the Father’s love for us.” JPII.
Of course your Christian brother can produce good fruits, he is a son of our Lord! It doesn’t mean that he is sinless, or that his sins aren’t THAT BAD; it means he’s not perfect, we all have a ways to go… It means he’s still holding back giving himself entirely to God, he’s still ruled by earthly passions. And so are we all…
God bless you and your love for your brother, and the Christian community.
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Lemme,

On your own you can do nothing, God alone is good, it is by the grace of God you are able to please God. How can you be in a homosexual relationship or act out homosexual acts and be in grace for whatever you do without grace is not pleasing to God? Shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means. Can we do evil to produce good? By no means. In the last days they will say, I did these things in your name, and He will say be gone you evil doers, I never knew you.
 
bzkoss236 said:
Sigh… you didn’t understand his post at all… he isn’t trying to justify anything, he is looking for how to respectfully respond to his brother to show how is in err. Those questions and statements at the end were supposed to be read as the questions as if by his homosexual brother, and the statements as his own response to his brother. Don’t jump the gun on supplying an answer, otherwise you too will produce bad fruit.

To the OP:
Your brother seems to miss part of the logic of why it is considered disordered. If your brother agrees that any sexual relations outside of marriage (whether unmarried or extramarital) is wrong, and if he believes that homosexuals cannot marry by the nature of what marriage is, then he should be able to piece together that homosexual relations are wrong because it is sexual relations outside of marriage. And that does not produce virtue. As per your example, Fortitude would be one virtue that it breaks, but I would go on to say that it also breaks the other virtues Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Patience, Humility, and Kindness. Some may argue that it does in fact produce the virtue of Kindness because a homosexual relationship can bring about compassion, understanding (empathy), and friendship, but it is a skewed and corrupted kindness. The real kindness would come from someone who takes up their cross and lives a chaste life instead of engaging in homosexual relations.

That is my 2 cents. If you would like my explanation on why it breaks the other virtues, just ask.
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BzKoss,

I have shown my brother his sins in private and he does not listen. I want him won and so by virtue of this forum I take it to two or more. Thank you for your understanding.
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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My brother will be shown as able as I am to understand that he is in error. You and others will be the mouths of two or three witnesses. I need as many witnesses as possible.
 
CopticChristian said:
BzKoss,

I have shown my brother his sins in private and he does not listen. I want him won and so by virtue of this forum I take it to two or more. Thank you for your understanding.

My brother will be shown as able as I am to understand that he is in error. You and others will be the mouths of two or three witnesses. I need as many witnesses as possible.
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Good luck 👍

May the Lord bless your words and give strength to them as you show your love and worry for your brother.

Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
 
Regular_Atheist said:
I very rarely see male friends kissing each other. I don’t know where you live, though, but even if it was a country where kissing between friends is socially acceptable, there’s a difference between friendly kisses (say between a child and a mother) and kisses that imply more of a sexual/romantic relationship.
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That’s what I was trying to say, sorry if I sounded confusing. Friendships is NOT JUST lack of sex, because what about kissing? Kissing is still being more than friends. I was agreeing with someone, I forgot who, I thought it was you.
 
CopticChristian said:
Lemme,

On your own you can do nothing, God alone is good, it is by the grace of God you are able to please God. How can you be in a homosexual relationship or act out homosexual acts and be in grace for whatever you do without grace is not pleasing to God? Shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means. Can we do evil to produce good? By no means. In the last days they will say, I did these things in your name, and He will say be gone you evil doers, I never knew you.
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Where do you disagree with me? I have said what you said.
A person who is gay and does good things cannot attribute his good actions to homosexuality, for evil does not produce good. I merely pointed out that if a person is doing something right, it’s by the grace of God, by that person’s identity as God’s creation, totally separate from the distorted passions that are homosexuality. Example: a prostitute buys a hamburger for a homeless person. Nobody is going to tell me that prostitution is okay, just because this one fed the homeless. I’m going to say: I’m glad she feeds the homeless, but she doesn’t get her charity from prostitution, she gets it from the compassion that she is capable of feeling, that dwells in people, because we’re human, because we’re God’s people. Her charity to a homeless person doesn’t excuse the fact that she still sins where prostitution is concerned. Her compassion came from God, not prostitution.
The same with homosexuality. If you meet a nice person who is gay (I’ve met tons), it’s not BECAUSE he’s gay that he’s nice. The two are unrelated; while he lives in sin, he displeases God. While he does good works, he pleases God. If someone is trying to make homosexuality good, that’s a waste of time, it’s not going to work. You have to choose, follow God, or your distorted passions (and there are many distorted passions that we can talk about, not just homosexuality), for often, are earthly passions do not coincide with God’s better, more perfect plans.
Tell your friend you’re glad he does good things, he could be better, though, if he took up his cross that is homosexuality, and gave that to God too. His good actions didn’t arise from homosexuality, that’s bogus, homosexuality will never please God. His good actions arose from all the other GOOD parts of him that come from being God’s son.
 
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