The Visitation for the Orthodox

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The Catholic Church teaches that at the Visitation, Jesus removes the original sin from St. John the Baptist. Since you do not hold the view of original sin in the same way we do, is there any significance to the occasion? Thank you.
 
The Catholic Church teaches that at the Visitation, Jesus removes the original sin from St. John the Baptist. Since you do not hold the view of original sin in the same way we do, is there any significance to the occasion? Thank you.
I had not heard that before. Can you shoot us the link to that teaching?
 
I have read the New Advent article and this is the first time I have heard this theory. Is this a theological opinion, or does the Church infallably teach that St John the Baptist was cleansed from Original Sin during the Visitation?
 
I read the site. To me, it shows the visitation to be like the baptism and confirmation of John. It puts him in the right status with God for his ministry.

I have never seen this taught as dogma.

However, I have no issue with the idea, as long as we do not get too crazy with it.
 
It was told to me by the priest teaching RCIA. It’s a teaching of the Catholic Church. We believe (as Catholics) John was born without sin. The Church infallably teaches this: Mary was concieved without original sin but John was born without original sin because of this meeting.
 
bump Still wondering. I’ve seen the icon, it’s important, but how do the Orthodox explain the leap for joy…or do they?
 
The Visitation is so closely tied up with the Annunciation that it’s part of the same feast.

However, 2 July (the traditional date for the Visitation in the West) we commemorate the placing of the girdle of the Mother of God in the Church of Blachernae. Think there’s a connection?
 
The Visitation is so closely tied up with the Annunciation that it’s part of the same feast.

However, 2 July (the traditional date for the Visitation in the West) we commemorate the placing of the girdle of the Mother of God in the Church of Blachernae. Think there’s a connection?
I thought the girdle was related to the Assumption, not the Visitation.
 
The Visitiation is significant because Mary ran to her relative Elizabeth to bring her the good news, and since Jesus was in her womb, she also brought to her the Son, Who showed He was the Salvation of believers by freeing John from Original Sin while he was still in his mother’s womb. Not only that, but Jesus revealed the graces of Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist by being with Mary and Elizabeth and John; furthermore, He showed the power of the gospel and, through Mary, revealed that the Church is the Sacrament of Salvation and that when we preach the gospel by our words, deeds, and prayers, we are preaching Jesus Christ. Finally, Jesus showed that those who are His family are not biological but spiritual; those who do the will of His Father are His co-heirs in the Kingdom, adoptered sons and daughters of the Father.
 
** Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
The Visitation is so closely tied up with the Annunciation that it’s part of the same feast.

However, 2 July (the traditional date for the Visitation in the West) we commemorate the placing of the girdle of the Mother of God in the Church of Blachernae. Think there’s a connection?

I thought the girdle was related to the Assumption, not the Visitation.**

The Gospel for that day (on the Byzantine Calendar) is that of the Visitation.
 
Still wondering. I’ve seen the icon, it’s important, but how do the Orthodox explain the leap for joy…or do they?

**The miracle is not the leap for joy, but that St. Elizabeth recognized the significance.

And it was at this time that inspired by the Holy Spirit she called the Theotokos, in effect, “Mother of YHVH”. Luke 1:43.**
 
Paragraph 717 in your CCC.
This?

717There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” (Jn 1:6) John was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” (Lk 1:15, 41) by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people (cf. Lk 1:68).

718 John is “Elijah [who] must come.” (Mt 17:10-13; cf. Lk 1:78) The fire of the Spirit dwells in him and makes him the forerunner of the coming Lord. In John, the precursor, the Holy Spirit completes the work of “making] ready a people prepared for the Lord.” (Lk 1:17)

719 John the Baptist is “more than a prophet.” (Lk 7:26) In him, the Holy Spirit concludes his speaking through the prophets. John completes the cycle of prophets begun by Elijah (cf. Mt 11:13-14). He proclaims the imminence of the consolation of Israel; he is the “voice” of the Consoler who is coming (Jn 1:23; cf. Isa 40:1-3). As the Spirit of truth will also do, John “came to bear witness to the light.” (Jn 1:7; cf. Jn 15:26; 5:35) In John’s sight, the Spirit thus brings to completion the careful search of the prophets and fulfills the longing of the angels (cf. 1 Pet 1:10-12). “He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God…Behold, the Lamb of God.” (Jn 1:33-36)

720 Finally, with John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit begins the restoration to man of “the divine likeness,” prefiguring what he would achieve with and in Christ. John’s baptism was for repentance; baptism in water and the Spirit will be a new birth (Cf Jn 3:59).
 
I thought the girdle was related to the Assumption, not the Visitation.
A different story, that one.

In the accounts, one of the apostles, often identified as St Thomas, was not present at Mary’s death and arrives late, either demanding proof of the Assumption or attesting to it. His arrival precipitates a reopening of Mary’s tomb, which is found to be empty except for her grave clothes. In either case, Mary was said to have dropped her girdle down to the apostle from heaven as testament to the event.

Then the most blessed Thomas was suddenly brought to the Mount of Olivet, and saw the most blessed body going up to heaven, and began to cry out and say: “O holy mother, blessed mother, spotless mother, if I have now found grace because I see thee, make thy servant joyful through thy compassion, because thou art going to heaven.” Then the girdle with which the apostles had encircled the most holy body was thrown down from heaven to the blessed Thomas. And taking it, and kissing it, and giving thanks to God, he came again into the Valley of Jehoshaphat. He found all the apostles and another great crowd there beating their breasts on account of the brightness which they had seen. And seeing and kissing each other, the blessed Peter said to him: “Truly thou hast always been obdurate and unbelieving, because for thine unbelief it was not pleasing to God that thou shouldst be along with us at the burial of the mother of the Saviour.” And he, beating his breast, said: “I know and firmly believe that I have always been a bad and an unbelieving man; therefore I ask pardon of all of you for my obduracy and unbelief.” And they all prayed for him.

Then the blessed Thomas said: “Where have you laid her body?” And they pointed out the sepulchre with their finger. And he said: “The body which is called most holy is not there.” Then the blessed Peter said to him: “Already on another occasion thou wouldst not believe the resurrection of our Master and Lord at our word, unless thou went to touch Him with thy fingers, and see Him; how wilt thou believe us that the holy body is here?” Still he persists saying: “It is not here.” Then, as it were in a rage, they went to the sepulchre, which was a new one hollowed out in the rock, and took up the stone; but they did not find the body, not knowing what to say, because they had been convicted by the words of Thomas. Then the blessed Thomas told them how he was singing mass in India—he still had on his sacerdotal robes. He, not knowing the word of God, had been brought to the Mount of Olivet, and saw the most holy body of the blessed Mary going up into heaven, and prayed her to give him a blessing. She heard his prayer, and threw him her girdle which she had about her. And the apostles seeing the belt which they had put about her, glorifying God, all asked pardon of the blessed Thomas, on account of the benediction which the blessed Mary had given him, and because he had seen the most holy body going up into heaven. And the blessed Thomas gave them his benediction, and said: “Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

-The Passing of Mary, first Latin form

As for St. Mary in Blachernae, in 450, the Empress Aelia Pulcheria started to build a church near a fountain of holy water (Greek: Hagiasma) situated outside the walls of Theodosius II at the foot of the sixth hill of Constantinople. After her death in 453, the shrine was completed by her husband, the Emperor Marcian. Emperor Leo I erected near the church two other buildings: a Parekklesion, named Hagia Soros (“holy reliquary”), since it hosted the holy mantle and robe of the Virgin brought from Palestine in 473, and the Hagion Lousma (“sacred bath”) edifice, which enclosed the fountain. The importance assumed by the whole complex encouraged the Emperors to lodge in the surroundings and to build there the nucleus of what would in later centuries become the imperial palace of Blachernae. During the first quarter of the 6th century, the Emperors Justin I and Justinian I restored and enlarged the church.
 
I don’t think it’s official Church teaching that John was born free from Original Sin. After all, Elizabeth too was filled with the Holy Spirit, as were all the prophets before John. None of them was cleansed of Original Sin as a result of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

St Simeon, for that matter, was also a man filled with the Holy Spirit. Surely you’re not suggesting that he likewise was free from Original Sin? It was only Christ’s death and resurrection that undid the effects of Adam’s sin, including Original Sin. No-one apart from Mary was freed from it in anticipation of these events that I know of.
 
This?

717There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” (Jn 1:6) John was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” (Lk 1:15, 41) by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people (cf. Lk 1:68).
Yes.
 
I don’t think it’s official Church teaching that John was born free from Original Sin.
Yes it is. UGH!!! Why can’t we all be catechized correctly (myself included)? Why do my brothers and sisters persist so much in rejecting such things?

Shall I post in, “Ask an Apologist” to settle this once and for all?

Mary was concieved without original sin, John was born without original sin. When he leaped in his mother’s womb, he was cleansed because of Jesus. Since Jesus removed his sin and he could not sin in his mother’s womb, he was born without original sin…according to the Catholic Church.
 
A different story, that one.

In the accounts, one of the apostles, often identified as St Thomas, was not present at Mary’s death and arrives late, either demanding proof of the Assumption or attesting to it. . . …
Thanks - Joe
 
A different story, that one.

In the accounts, one of the apostles, often identified as St Thomas, was not present at Mary’s death and arrives late, either demanding proof of the Assumption or attesting to it. His arrival precipitates a reopening of Mary’s tomb, which is found to be empty except for her grave clothes. In either case, Mary was said to have dropped her girdle down to the apostle from heaven as testament to the event.

Then the most blessed Thomas was suddenly brought to the Mount of Olivet, and saw the most blessed body going up to heaven, and began to cry out and say: “O holy mother, blessed mother, spotless mother, if I have now found grace because I see thee, make thy servant joyful through thy compassion, because thou art going to heaven.” Then the girdle with which the apostles had encircled the most holy body was thrown down from heaven to the blessed Thomas. And taking it, and kissing it, and giving thanks to God, he came again into the Valley of Jehoshaphat. He found all the apostles and another great crowd there beating their breasts on account of the brightness which they had seen. And seeing and kissing each other, the blessed Peter said to him: “Truly thou hast always been obdurate and unbelieving, because for thine unbelief it was not pleasing to God that thou shouldst be along with us at the burial of the mother of the Saviour.” And he, beating his breast, said: “I know and firmly believe that I have always been a bad and an unbelieving man; therefore I ask pardon of all of you for my obduracy and unbelief.” And they all prayed for him.

Then the blessed Thomas said: “Where have you laid her body?” And they pointed out the sepulchre with their finger. And he said: “The body which is called most holy is not there.” Then the blessed Peter said to him: “Already on another occasion thou wouldst not believe the resurrection of our Master and Lord at our word, unless thou went to touch Him with thy fingers, and see Him; how wilt thou believe us that the holy body is here?” Still he persists saying: “It is not here.” Then, as it were in a rage, they went to the sepulchre, which was a new one hollowed out in the rock, and took up the stone; but they did not find the body, not knowing what to say, because they had been convicted by the words of Thomas. Then the blessed Thomas told them how he was singing mass in India—he still had on his sacerdotal robes. He, not knowing the word of God, had been brought to the Mount of Olivet, and saw the most holy body of the blessed Mary going up into heaven, and prayed her to give him a blessing. She heard his prayer, and threw him her girdle which she had about her. And the apostles seeing the belt which they had put about her, glorifying God, all asked pardon of the blessed Thomas, on account of the benediction which the blessed Mary had given him, and because he had seen the most holy body going up into heaven. And the blessed Thomas gave them his benediction, and said: “Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

-The Passing of Mary, first Latin form

As for St. Mary in Blachernae, in 450, the Empress Aelia Pulcheria started to build a church near a fountain of holy water (Greek: Hagiasma) situated outside the walls of Theodosius II at the foot of the sixth hill of Constantinople. After her death in 453, the shrine was completed by her husband, the Emperor Marcian. Emperor Leo I erected near the church two other buildings: a Parekklesion, named Hagia Soros (“holy reliquary”), since it hosted the holy mantle and robe of the Virgin brought from Palestine in 473, and the Hagion Lousma (“sacred bath”) edifice, which enclosed the fountain. The importance assumed by the whole complex encouraged the Emperors to lodge in the surroundings and to build there the nucleus of what would in later centuries become the imperial palace of Blachernae. During the first quarter of the 6th century, the Emperors Justin I and Justinian I restored and enlarged the church.
Is this part of Sacred Tradition?
 
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