This is is perhaps my greatest frustration. It is so obiously true but so seldom appreciated.
I once said to my mother something like “Well, I guess I owe you about $30,000 for my upbringing.” (Living was cheaper in those days.) She didn’t get what I was talking about. Of course, even if I had repaid her for my upbringing, the point is that I expected to be productive enough over my lifetime to substantially exceed the cost of my upbringing. So do most people. Does anybody think they they will never be productive? If they do, then we need to change their outlook.
It could very well happen, given that modern society and population levels is entirely dependent on the use of nonrenewable fossil fuels. While I don’t believe cities will disappear, it is an entirely reasonable assumption to believe that the ratio between city dwellers and country dwellers will decrease as the energy to support the artificial city environment becomes less available.
I don’t agree that the city environment of today is “artificial” but it is certainly possible that they could depopulate in an econonomic collapse. A lower ratio of city (including suburbs and exurbs) to rural (meaning, primarily, agriculture) will be a symptom of catastrophy, declining standards of living, poverty, despair, etc.
There may be those who are incapable of being productive (severe physical or mental handicap) but most people can find some place even if it is bagging groceries. But the biggest loss is perhaps those who don’t even try or who settle for less than they could be. Most people settle without much thought.
I concur. The Muslim world is a very prominent example of this phenomena; legal contraception with no abortion except in the most extreme circumstances.
Hmm, maybe I’m wrong then. The muslim world has not been immune to the fertility decline. Iran is below replacement and Turkey has plummeted to right around it. Abortion is illegal there? I did not know that. Back to the puzzling board…
Most westerners are unaware of this. Interestingly enough, what made me research this was the “contraception leads to abortion” idea that is repeatedly put forth on the forum. That’s when I quickly discovered this was not the case with the Muslim world, which isn’t some anecdote; it’s a huge example that demonstrates this is not always the case. It is my contention that contraception isn’t the issue per se. it is the lack of morals that is the underlying issue, and the Muslim example clearly indicates this is the case.
Contraception started gaining “respectability” in the West a more than 50 years before abortion commonly became legal here. Don’t assume that because abortion is illegal in Islamic countries now it will always be so. Islam fundamentally bans alcohol, but everybody knows Saudis party like rock stars when they go abroad. No reason that they won’t learn to wink at abortion in time too. It will be interesting to see if that develops, or if the double whammy contraception and abortion have had on western TFR is a coincidence.
Remember that you are referring only to modern contraception and abortion. Contraception has verifiably existed since the time of Onan, and it is reasonable to assume that it existed before then. Abortion has also existed since time immemorial.
Fornication existed prior to the 1920’s too, but it wasn’t respectable anywhere. Certainly contraception has existed nearly forever. But christianity universally considered it an abomination until around the 1920’s when protestant groups caved one by one until by the late 30’s they mostly had switched sides. Roe didn’t happen until the early 70’s. Thus, you can’t say for sure that Islam will indefinately resist the worldly pressures to rationalize abortion. Islam suffers from the same protestant problem of lack of organized authority, so if the people largely WANT to be told abortion is OK, they will eventually go find imams who tell them it is OK.
I’m one to objectively observe facts and interpret them, not force them into any preconceived notion. As noted earlier, the reason I even researched this was because Catholics were asserting that contraception always leads to abortion. The fact is that modern contraception has existed for decades and the results have varied amongst various cultures. Contraception does not seem to be the cause, but rather the effect. Morals, or the lack thereof, are the common theme. The culture lacking religious morals aborts; the culture that does does not lack such morals does not abort (except in extreme circumstances).