The Wasteland of Liturgy

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Tis_Bearself said:
A person could be going through dozens of elaborate old school pre-Vatican II reverential gestures, and still be irreverent in his heart because he is just going through the motions. And a person could come in dressed in grungy clothes and doing the most modern of “irreverent” gestures, and still have great reverence in his heart.
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Amen @Tis_Bearself…

Let me piggyback on that and go a step further…

There could be a devout “catholic” who dresses in a three piece suite and tie and goes to the Extraordinary Form Mass daily for 75 years straight, but who has no charity for the poor and nothing but disdain for anyone besides those in his little bubble… let’s call him Phil.

Then there could be a lapsed Catholic or even nonreliguous person whose heart is brimming with charity, who feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, houses the homeless, and visits the sick and imprisoned, let’s call him Joe.

There’s a high probably that when Joe and Phil get to stand before God, Phil will be told “depart from me, you accursed, I never knew you”, while Joe will be told “come and inherit your kingdom, for I was hungry and you gave me food, thirsty and you gave me drink, naked and you clothed me, sick and imprisoned and you visited me.”
 
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Peter_M said:
I cannot take this seriously. Being entertained? You are missing the point entirely. Reverence isn’t being entertained.

I don’t doubt your love of God, please do not doubt mine. Perhaps you have had better experiences at Mass.

You exaggerate by bringing up the Mormon Choir, and the electrifying preacher. When I was a boy, we had a choir, dressed in robes, not a big show, not even a great show. But there were more than a dozen members. Today, there are at most four. The reverence is quite different. I don’t recall exactly how the priest behaved, but even after the Vatican II ritual came into full swing, the priest was sober and sincere in his homily. It was not electrifying. Telling jokes and humorous anecdotes was not the rubric of the homily. Today’s homilies seem more like entertainment.
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And the savior of the world died a gruesome death, bleeding and gasping for his last breath while being mocked by the world around him. No beautiful hymns, no choirs or profound homilies, just gasping ugliness.

Perspective is good.
 
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I need to ask this. It is a serious question.
The status quo around here is to basically either shout down the people who are bothered by liturgical novelties or actual abuses by implying that their own faith is somehow lacking, or to simply brush it off and chalk it up to “offering it up”…which, I suppose is noble.

Does ANYTHING bother you enough to be concerned about? Do you acknowledge ANY sort of crisis in the church?
 
I must take slight issue with this.
Good works, if not in a state of grace, merit us nothing. A “lapsed catholic” is not in a state of grace.
 
True. But in your scenario, the lapsed catholic has better odds due to their brimming charity.
 
Mr_Freeze said:
I need to ask this. It is a serious question.
The status quo around here is to basically either shout down the people who are bothered by liturgical novelties or actual abuses by implying that their own faith is somehow lacking, or to simply brush it off and chalk it up to “offering it up”…which, I suppose is noble.

Does ANYTHING bother you enough to be concerned about? Do you acknowledge ANY sort of crisis in the church?
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I like the AA credo, which is based in Christian thought going way back:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
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Do I have an opportunity to change something?
Is it crucial that it be changed, in the whole context of the Christian life?
Do I have the competence and/or authority to speak with some gravity about it?
Is God in control of the things I can’t change, or is he not?
 
So…that’s “no” then? Nothing bothers you, and there is no crisis?
 
Exactly my point.

Faith without works is dead.

God is not going to judge us strictly on our beliefs or lack of beliefs. He’s going to take belief into account, but he’s also going to judge us by our actions, or lack of action, our circumstances of life, literally everything.

God will judge justly the entire person.
 
I would say no.

I am fully confident that Providence guides the Church. I am in no way worried or bothered about the Church, and I sense no crisis either.
 
Mr_Freeze said:
So…that’s “no” then? Nothing bothers you, and there is no crisis?
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I have a suicidal family member. THAT is a crisis my friend.
My mom is 91 and needs a ride everywhere. That can be a crisis.
Like 120 people died in my county last year from opiod overdose. That is a crisis.
My daughter is marrying a Hindu (good man but still…).
I sometimes wonder where folks get the energy to worry about things like Mass music. It must be a real luxury.

Perspective is good.
 
A lifetime of good works without being in a state of grace amounts to self-fulfillment, not doing God’s work here on earth. For the “lapsed catholic” in your scenario anyway…
 
Peter_M said:
Critiquing rather than celebrating the liturgy? Hmmm, when I celebrate, I should not have to tolerate, at least that’s not the primary reason I would go to Mass - to tolerate it.
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our Christmas Mass was awful. The homily was terrible. They choir was a nightmare or I should say, calling them a choir was being generous. The hymns were barely singable let alone recognizable. I was surrounded by either lapsed Catholics or non Catholics because they didn’t kneel. A couple in front of me chatted from the time I entered and knelt down until the organ began the opening hymn. The nativity set looked like it had been painted in black and gray.

It was without question the worst Christmas Mass I had ever attended.

I sang my heart out. I smiled at my pew neighbors, I listened to that homily. I rejoiced during the Eucharist. And I was so, so happy to be there. I was there for Jesus. Where better to offer up your suffering than in His physical presence?
 
Tell me about the “fruits of Vatican II”. By their fruits you will know them, etc, etc…
There are measurable stats and metrics which can be tracked from the last 50+ years. How are those looking? How do they support the perpetual goal and mission of the Church?
 
Vatican II is not the reason for all the problems in the Church and in the world.

There are many social, political, technological and cultural changes which have occurred which impacted the Church in a major way.
 
I’m not saying it was THE problem, but tell me how it improved the church and advanced it’s mission. It was called to address some apparent need, so tell me how it helped.
 
and…I thought you didn’t see any crisis in the church…
 
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Mr_Freeze said:
The status quo around here is to basically either shout down the people who are bothered by liturgical novelties or actual abuses
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I would say that the OP doesn’t contain any evidence of liturgical novelties or actual abuses at his local Mass. Only that it ‘lacks’ the grandeur and ‘reverence’ he perceives has been lost after VII.
 
Mr_Freeze said:
You are correct. It is easier to have faith when life is shitty. For me, at least…
That has always bothered me somewhat. My faith is a lot more active when the chips are down. Right now, life is good, so perhaps that is why I need to just keep my eyes closed during mass at the NO parish.
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I’mm not saying life is shitty.
I’m trying to look at Mass in the full perspective. It is communal, not personal.
Mass is also about being sent into the world. Christ’s sacrifice and the grace poured out don’t stop at the Mass.
There are many crises, and only so much time.

Perspective.
 
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