The Way In Which Mass is Celebrated DOES Make a Difference!

[o_mlly]

That kind of smacks of Donatism . . .

AMDG

hawk

First Mass of a Newly Ordained Priest. PLENARY INDULGENCE granted to the priest and to the faithful who devoutly assist at the same Mass.

Jubilees of Sacerdotal Ordination. A PLENARY INDULGENCE is granted to a priest on the 25th, 50th and 60th anniversaries of his ordination when he renews before God his resolve to faithfully fulfill the duties of his vocation. If the priest celebrates a jubilee Mass, the faithful who assist at it can acquire a Plenary Indulgence.
catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php

 

[Solomonson]

Appearances reflect as much about us as the reflect those around us. I would expect a Mass on a university would be different than that with a different demographic. Likewise, those who are older may have a more internal reverence that does isn’t as splashy as those younger or newer in the faith.

From my experience, college-aged Catholics are rather solemn and reverent when it comes to the celebration of the Mass. It’s those who came of age beginning in the latter 1960s that seem to relish non-solemn, non-reverent celebrations of the Mass.

I would say that those who visit parishes that are not their own should respect the priest and the direction he is taking his parish. In one’s own parish, then it is laudable to assist in the liturgy, and acceptable to pass on one’s own concerns. It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness, at least a candle of prayer.

I learned long ago (at least where I live) that concerns about the celebration of the Mass will be absolutely, 100% ignored unless it’s truly a grave matter (e.g. desecration of the Blessed Sacrament) or unless the person with the concern is a large benefactor to the parish or the diocese. That might sound harsh, but I continue to witness it (from a distance) on a fairly regular basis.

The Church is really the only place I know of in this day and age (and that includes: family, gov’t, work, education, commerce, etc.) where legitimate concerns go ignored with no real means of obtaining corrective action. Unless it was truly a grave matter, I wouldn’t waste the time or energy bringing up a liturgical concern in my parish.

 

[Solomonson]

A quick update. After the wonderful Mass I mentioned in posting #1 of this thread, I found the priest’s email address and sent him a note thanking him and asking if everything that happened was happenstance or what? I finally received a response.

He said that he was in town to visit his favorite aunt and uncle. The cantor is their son who also arranged for the servers and the organist. The intention of the Mass was also for his aunt and uncle.

He said he spends considerable time and effort to celebrate the Mass in the most solemn and beautiful way possible. He said the key was recruiting/training/developing laypeople to assist with the celebration of the Mass. He said something very profound in his letter. I paraphrase: Sometimes those who are quickest and pushiest to “help” are the last people you want helping. Conversely, some are the most reticent to help, are those you really want helping. I found that absolutely fascinating.

He invited me to his parish, but it’s 210 miles away. I suspect his parishioners are deeply fortunate to have him. I’ll certainly visit the next time I am in that town.

Mystery solved. I really appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut on this matter. Thanks.

 

[dochawk]

First Mass of a Newly Ordained Priest. PLENARY INDULGENCE granted to the priest and to the faithful who devoutly assist at the same Mass.

That’s hardly comparable to

I heard a priest, maybe Father Ripperger, say the available grace for all Masses is infinite, however, the amount is “metered” according to the holiness of the priest and the faithfulness of the congregation.

AMDG

 

[dochawk]

It’s interesting that you say that. While I have long been a bi-ritual Catholic laymen (don’t have a stroke, I know this is possible only in my heart) and have attended many, many, many beautiful Divine Liturgies, on more than a few occasions their celebration seems to result in a longer and more complicated liturgy but not one that I would necessarily call more solemn or reverent. I try to take pains not to conflate these different qualities.

I’m certainly not conflating here

And my priest may well chant faster than any other in the US This results in a comparatively short (Not much more than an hour) Divine Liturgy.

I mean the attitude and behavior of priest and congregation both.

The “typical” RC experience I had over decades–with some notable exceptions–came across variously as a hurry to get it over with and be out of there, conflict between a (more often than not untalented) singer who was doing it to get chance to perform and the “victims” [when I can tell someone is off key, it’s really bad], singers and piano players fighting for control of the tune, cellphone reading (and even answering!), and general indifference.

Every DL I’ve attended has seemed focused on God and reverence instead.

I have, though, seen several reverent RC Masses, but they have been the exception.

Kind of like the difference between Eastern and Western “obligation” to attend: the west is under penalty of sin, while the eastern obligation has been compared to the obligation to breathe: you just can’t live without it.

One also has to consider the tiny number of EC priests vs. RC priests, and now much more close knit then their Roman counterparts are across the nation.

That is likely a factor.

Then again, an RC priest probably has more frequent contact with his fellow priests than the EC . . . even in a largish area like Las Vegas, we have two Byzantine Catholic [Pittsburgh Metropolia {one our rite, the other Greco/Italo/Albanian}] priests, a married Deacon to be ordained eventually to the presbyterate at each, a handful of diaconal candidates at various stages, and one Maronite priest. In fact, that’s it for the entire state.

The next closest would be at our Cathedral in Phoenix (300 miles?), San Diego (one of ours and a Chaldean parish), and LA and Van Nuys (our former see).

AMDG

 

[MtnDwellar]

That kind of smacks of Donatism . . .

AMDG

hawk

I didn’t mean to imply that the grace can metered down to zero. The Mass is an act of the Church and will always be meritorious. I agree with some similarity to Donatism, but not Donatism.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

First Mass of a Newly Ordained Priest. PLENARY INDULGENCE granted to the priest and to the faithful who devoutly assist at the same Mass.

Jubilees of Sacerdotal Ordination. A PLENARY INDULGENCE is granted to a priest on the 25th, 50th and 60th anniversaries of his ordination when he renews before God his resolve to faithfully fulfill the duties of his vocation. If the priest celebrates a jubilee Mass, the faithful who assist at it can acquire a Plenary Indulgence.
catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php

This is not a practice that at all relates to Donatism, which was at the heart of what you are responding to.

What you cite, to the contrary, is a grant from the Church with regard to an occasion in a priest’s life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the individual priest’s relative holiness. The indulgence is related to the occasion.

The position of the Donatists is to be greeted only with horror and rejection because of the devastating effect their position would have had on the entire sacramental system.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Does this qualify as Donatism?

With Christ and His Church is associated in third place the celebrating priest, since he is the representative through whom the real and the mystical Christ offer up the sacrifice. If, therefore, the celebrant be a man of great personal devotion, holiness, and
purity, there will accrue an additional fruit which will benefit not himself alone, but also those in whose favor he applies the Mass. The faithful are thus guided by sound instinct when they prefer to have Mass celebrated for their intentions by an upright and holy priest rather than by an unworthy one, since, in addition to the chief fruit of the Mass, they secure this special fruit which springs ex opere operantis, from the piety of the celebrant. When we consider the action of the Mass from the point of view of Christ who offers by means of the priest, by virtue of the Church as a juridic person and by virtue of the priesthood of the priest who offers, the fruits are derived ex opere operato. It is by the very work performed that these fruits are derived from the Mass. However, since the priesthood and sanctity are ontologically distinct within the priest himself, it is possible for him to have these two kinds of merit, one which is ex opere operato and the other ex opere operantis. Fr Ripperger

u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit%20of%20the%20Mass%20(Fr.%20Ripperger,%20F.S.S.P.).pdf

 

[YADA]

A quick update. After the wonderful Mass I mentioned in posting #1 of this thread, I found the priest’s email address and sent him a note thanking him and asking if everything that happened was happenstance or what? I finally received a response.

He said that he was in town to visit his favorite aunt and uncle. The cantor is their son who also arranged for the servers and the organist. The intention of the Mass was also for his aunt and uncle.

He said he spends considerable time and effort to celebrate the Mass in the most solemn and beautiful way possible. He said the key was recruiting/training/developing laypeople to assist with the celebration of the Mass. He said something very profound in his letter. I paraphrase: Sometimes those who are quickest and pushiest to “help” are the last people you want helping. Conversely, some are the most reticent to help, are those you really want helping. I found that absolutely fascinating.

He invited me to his parish, but it’s 210 miles away. I suspect his parishioners are deeply fortunate to have him. I’ll certainly visit the next time I am in that town.

Mystery solved. I really appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut on this matter. Thanks.

I was reading through the thread and wanted to see all the posts before I posted …

My suggestion for you was that you should volunteer with your parish liturgy committee and help in the planning for liturgies, training of various ministers - altar servers, lectors/readers, ushers, EMHC etc … then you would have influence in the Way In Which Mass is Celebrated and which DOES Make a Difference… I see that the priest you admired inferred as much in his letter …

Let no time nor dust settle - get involved

 

[Solomonson]

I was reading through the thread and wanted to see all the posts before I posted …

My suggestion for you was that you should volunteer with your parish liturgy committee and help in the planning for liturgies, training of various ministers - altar servers, lectors/readers, ushers, EMHC etc … then you would have influence in the Way In Which Mass is Celebrated and which DOES Make a Difference… I see that the priest you admired inferred as much in his letter …

Let no time nor dust settle - get involved

Thanks for your comments. There is absolutely no way that I would (once again) volunteer to help with my parish’s liturgy committee. I’m one of many (far, far more than actually serve on the various liturgical committees) at my parish that holds this conviction.

Their infighting (mostly over parish turf) is sickening. Their inbreeding and treatment of others is appalling. Each “coordinator” has been in place for at least 15 years. I have heard this aggregate group referred to as “evil” by some very respected parish members. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that, but the thought does me me cringe and wonder.

If I attended a parish with a pastor like the one that celebrated the Mass so reverently and beautifully, I would do all that I could to help. Heck, I’d get involved at just about any parish in a big way as long as the priest was sincere, fair and honestly looking to improve things.

 

[Solomonson]

…Father did mention, though, that the latin priests simply are not trained in chant, and that he has had to suggest to a couple that they recite rather than chant until they got the training . . .

Eventually, someone may notice at a Mass that he’s using Slavonic rather than Gregorian chant . . .

AMDG

hawk

The style of “chant” employed by Byzantine Catholic priests and deacons is far, far, far, simpler to learn than that used by Latin Rite Priests. It took me about 4 Sundays.

 

[YADA]

Thanks for your comments. There is absolutely no way that I would (once again) volunteer to help with my parish’s liturgy committee. I’m one of many (far, far more than actually serve on the various liturgical committees) at my parish that holds this conviction.

Their infighting (mostly over parish turf) is sickening. Their inbreeding and treatment of others is appalling. Each “coordinator” has been in place for at least 15 years. I have heard this aggregate group referred to as “evil” by some very respected parish members. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that, but the thought does me me cringe and wonder.

If I attended a parish with a pastor like the one that celebrated the Mass so reverently and beautifully, I would do all that I could to help. Heck, I’d get involved at just about any parish in a big way as long as the priest was sincere, fair and honestly looking to improve things.

Sad … but then you are forever going to parish shop for the perfect parish - and leave every time that perfect priest gets reassigned … or … be disgruntled with those who are so obviously unsuited for service in your parish and a Mass that disappoints as it is not done ‘well’ …

I have been involved in several parishes … that priest was correct - many volunteers are ones you wish would not … but if those that should don’t … well you get what you get …

Personally,I never let the parish cliches or turf wars stop me … I continued to volunteer, respectfully work with everyone and make gains as they could be made … Rome was not built in a day, nor the Church either … a reading of the early Church Fathers illustrates much discussion even dissent … respect and perseverance for and with all volunteers will make gains … and I would rather that then be perpetually aggrieved or wandering in search of perfection

 

[Solomonson]

Sad … but then you are forever going to parish shop for the perfect parish - and leave every time that perfect priest gets reassigned … or … be disgruntled with those who are so obviously unsuited for service in your parish and a Mass that disappoints as it is not done ‘well’ …

If there was a better parish in the town I live in I would likely leave, but I attend the best of the two.

I have been involved in several parishes … that priest was correct - many volunteers are ones you wish would not … but if those that should don’t … well you get what you get …

That’s a very fascinating thing to me. I do know there are some truly wonderful people in my parish that won’t go near any standing committee because the politics are so hideous. They might get involved in a specific project with the pastor, but that’s it.

My parish now begs for ushers, servers and EMHCs – particularly in preparation for Christmas and Easter because no one wants to get involved. The responsibility for this situation rests wit my pastor and those that came before him.

One thing I have found that really works for me is to never (and I mean never) put myself in a position to allow such people dominion over me. That has helped hugely. I can still be involved in my own way with zero concern about all the games.

Personally,I never let the parish cliches or turf wars stop me … I continued to volunteer, respectfully work with everyone and make gains as they could be made … Rome was not built in a day, nor the Church either … a reading of the early Church Fathers illustrates much discussion even dissent … respect and perseverance for and with all volunteers will make gains … and I would rather that then be perpetually aggrieved or wandering in search of perfection

That is really an awesome attitude. The true difficulty with that is two-fold at my parish. First even if one is a subtle, master politician in their own right, they wouldn’t be allowed to join the different committees unless they already demonstrated they agreed with what’s going on. They are very inbred groups. Also in some cases things that come out of the committees truly are wrong, and I would find it very difficult to have others in my parish associate me with such things.

Still, I appreciate what you are saying. You sound like the music director at my parish. She’s honest, fair and talented and she’s demonstrated the political skills to deal with the people I mentioned. She was also hired with some impressive credentials. I think the pastor told the problem people something like “leave her and her people alone. They’re responsible for the music, not you!” If one is a musician at my parish, one has things pretty good due to her efforts.

 

[o_mlly]

This is not a practice that at all relates to Donatism, which was at the heart of what you are responding to.

What you cite, to the contrary, is a grant from the Church with regard to an occasion in a priest’s life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the individual priest’s relative holiness. The indulgence is related to the occasion.

The position of the Donatists is to be greeted only with horror and rejection because of the devastating effect their position would have had on the entire sacramental system.

My citation follows:

“… the Bride of Christ desires for every Mass a crowded church, being rightly convinced that from the unlimited treasures of the Mass much more grace will result to the individual from a service participated in by a full congregation, than from one attended merely by a few of the faithful.” newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

The intrinsic merit of the Mass is infinite because Christ is infinite in His worth as High Priest and Victim. However, the extrinsic merit of the Mass varies and is based essentially upon six things. “These six things are intermediaries between the infinite efficaciousness of the Mass and those who receive the actual effects from the Mass.”
“The Merit of a Mass”
Fr. Chad Ripperger
Summer 2003
u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit%20of%20the%20Mass%20(Fr.%20Ripperger,%20F.S.S.P.).pdf

To which another poster commented “smacked of Donatism.”

The point of my second citation regarding the special indulgences evidences that Masses presided by certain priests on certain occasions, as Ripperger suggests, effect additional graces to those who faithfully assist.

 

[bquinnan]

He said something very profound in his letter. I paraphrase: Sometimes those who are quickest and pushiest to “help” are the last people you want helping. Conversely, some are the most reticent to help, are those you really want helping. I found that absolutely fascinating.

Fascinating, yes, but I can understand that. I would think that the people most eager to help would frequently be those who think they can do it better, “better” often being defined based on their personal tastes and preferences. Those reluctant to help may be those who have so much respect for the liturgy that they don’t want to take anything away from it, so they are likely to be very prudent in deciding what to do or not do during the Holy Mass.

 

[Solomonson]

Fascinating, yes, but I can understand that. I would think that the people most eager to help would frequently be those who think they can do it better, “better” often being defined based on their personal tastes and preferences. Those reluctant to help may be those who have so much respect for the liturgy that they don’t want to take anything away from it, so they are likely to be very prudent in deciding what to do or not do during the Holy Mass.

There are a couple of reasons I would never get involved again:

1. I simply choose not to work with jerks in that context.
2. Working with jerks in that context can have a truly deleterious effect on one’s Mass attendance and eventually even their faith. To witness the behind-the-scenes mistreatment of people in the context of “church” and particularly the liturgy is an especially nasty thing.

 

[Solomonson]

Fascinating, yes, but I can understand that. I would think that the people most eager to help would frequently be those who think they can do it better, “better” often being defined based on their personal tastes and preferences. Those reluctant to help may be those who have so much respect for the liturgy that they don’t want to take anything away from it, so they are likely to be very prudent in deciding what to do or not do during the Holy Mass.

I think a lot of good people simply don’t want to deal with those who are in charge – especially in a parish/liturgical setting.

That can lead to real liturgical issues because good people don’t want anything to do with problematic people in this context, so in many cases the only new people that get involved are of the same low caliber that’s already in charge.

There’s far more to this issue than mere “preferences.” The celebration of the Mass should be special. Distinct, lifted up from our daily lives if at all possible. It’s treating the celebration of the Mass as just another daily task to check off is what bothers me.

 

[pnewton]

Thanks for your comments. There is absolutely no way that I would (once again) volunteer to help with my parish’s liturgy committee. I’m one of many (far, far more than actually serve on the various liturgical committees) at my parish that holds this conviction.

Their infighting (mostly over parish turf) is sickening. Their inbreeding and treatment of others is appalling. Each “coordinator” has been in place for at least 15 years. I have heard this aggregate group referred to as “evil” by some very respected parish members. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that, but the thought does me me cringe and wonder.

If I attended a parish with a pastor like the one that celebrated the Mass so reverently and beautifully, I would do all that I could to help. Heck, I’d get involved at just about any parish in a big way as long as the priest was sincere, fair and honestly looking to improve things.

So let me get this straight. You complain about the liturgy, don’t want to help, and call those that are at least trying in-breds.

You do not think your priest is sincere. Did I miss anything? Your inability to receive from the liturgy at your parish what you need might not be the liturgy.

 

[dochawk]

The style of “chant” employed by Byzantine Catholic priests and deacons is far, far, far, simpler to learn than that used by Latin Rite Priests. It took me about 4 Sundays.

Well, it is called “plainchant”

And it beats the daylights out of “no chant” . . .

BTW, as of the last publication of the GIRM, chanting is the norm for the RC mass, and recitation the exception.

The problems is that there are very few RC priests currently trained in it. My priest has politely suggested to a couple that they cease the “chanting” that they were attempting

He first drifted into chant in the Anaphora, err, Eucharistic Prayer, at an RC mass without realizing it–and got several very positive comments, and eventually did it as his norm when he does these.

AMDG

hawk

 

[Don_Ruggero]

So let me get this straight. You complain about the liturgy, don’t want to help, and call those that are at least trying in-breds.

You do not think your priest is sincere. Did I miss anything? Your inability to receive from the liturgy at your parish what you need might not be the liturgy.

If that were in my parish, such a person would not be invited to be part of our parish effort, if I knew that was their mind…and if they were already involved and these attitudes became manifest, they would be informed by me, as their parish priest, that their volunteer service was terminated.