The Welfare System & Catholic Social Teaching

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Can anyone help me with a better understanding of the relationship between welfare & what the Church teaches?

Bear in mind I’m from the UK. There’s a big debate going on over here at the moment about benefits

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16675314

news.sky.com/home/politics/article/16154476

I have a feeling that the principle of subsidiarity is relevant, also the prevalent idea in the UK is the welfare is good & looks after people. However we end up with families who have been on benefits now for two or three generations. Is it fair to say that the Church teaches that everyone needs to do the best they can to support themselves and live off their own means. However if they can’t, society intervenes and makes sure that they can live and they don’t starve.

Can anyone explain this to me with reference to the relevant social encyclicals?

Can we demonstrate that welfare is self perpetuating?
 
I don’t have a good answer. I wonder about this as well. Here in the States, we hear a lot about subsidiarity from conservative Catholics, especially around election time. “Just as it is wrong to take away from individuals what they can accomplish by their own ability and effort and entrust it to community, so it is an injury and at the same time a serious evil and a disturbance of right order to assign to a larger community what can be performed succesfully by smaller and lower communities.” (Quadragesimo Ano, 79). This sounds like a government forceably usurping power from the people. But what if individuals come together in a democracy and vote to put in place such safety nets as welfare, medicare and unemployment insurance? Or if they elect leaders knowing that they will enact and sustain such safety nets? Is this still a “serious evil and disturbance of right order”?
 
I don’t have a good answer. I wonder about this as well. Here in the States, we hear a lot about subsidiarity from conservative Catholics, especially around election time. “Just as it is wrong to take away from individuals what they can accomplish by their own ability and effort and entrust it to community, so it is an injury and at the same time a serious evil and a disturbance of right order to assign to a larger community what can be performed succesfully by smaller and lower communities.” (Quadragesimo Ano, 79). This sounds like a government forceably usurping power from the people. But what if individuals come together in a democracy and vote to put in place such safety nets as welfare, medicare and unemployment insurance? Or if they elect leaders knowing that they will enact and sustain such safety nets? Is this still a “serious evil and disturbance of right order”?
A couple of thoughts come to mind: first of all, modern liberal democracies are not a perfect form of government; and at times they become completely tyrannical. As such, we need to be very careful about doing something at a high, centralized place. The majority have no right to usurp rights of others, and usurping a decision that should be made at a more localized level is usurping a right. That is what subsidiarity teaches us.

I would say, in the US, at a local or even state level, if the people come together and decide to have universal health care, or a social safety net: that is fine, that is their right. But to do so at the federal level, it becomes questionable.

Just look at our tax code, and we can see that everything is structured backwards. The majority of our taxes should be going to the local and state levels, so those governments have the ability to make the necessary decisions that the local people want or need. Instead, most of our money goes to Washington,and many state and local programs have to be funded with block grants from Washington. It makes no sense at all; and it illustrates how things are so upside down in our society.

The founders certainly had an understanding of this. They reserved almost all powers to the states. Slowly, that concept has been abandoned, and as such things become much more dysfunctional.
 
Thank you for your responses.

How do you see this relating specifically to a welfare system which is designed to facilitate public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life, and yet, after what, sixty-four years? We have a system that pays 50,000 famlies in excess of £26,000 a year (that’s about $40,538.76).

My criticisms revolve around the fact that I have encountered situations where I have offered jobs to people who couldn’t accept them because they would lose housing benefit or something, that would drop them below the poverty line. This seems utterly ridiculous to me!

The MP proposing the amendments in the links above is a really good Catholic, one of the few we have here actually. The Anglican bishops have tabled an amendment to exclude child benefit from the bill, which doesn’t seem unreasonable, our lot are silent however (I wish you’d loan us Timothy Dolan or someone for a few months). I do think Ian Duncan Smith is making sense on this & want to be able to understand the argument so as to support his position!
 
FightingFat, I would say the examples you give, of people not being able to accept a job because of loss of benefit, is a direct result of implementing these policies on a national,as opposed to a local level. When something is done at such a high level, all one can do is make rules and follow them; so there will always be cases that don’t fit, and seem ridiculous. Hence, a need for subsidiarity.
 
I guess this is a post in support of benefit, or specifically child benefit? Please don’t get me wrong, I am proud of our social welfare system, even though it seems to not help those who need it enough, and help those who know how to play it too much. I’m just trying to understand the balance between giving a man a fish and teaching how to fish, I guess.
 
One of the many problems we have in the US with welfare is the same one you just mentioned: there is a cit-off point. So, for us this frequently comes into play with health insurance: if a family makes under $X, they do not have to pay for health insurance, but if they make $X+$1, they have to pay for their own if their employer doesn’t pay for it. Because it costs between $6,000 and $12,000 depending on where you live, that’s a hefty load.

If there were a gradual reduction, one which favored working and earning more, then people who dind themselves in these situations would be encouraged to work and improve themselves. As it is, they are actually discouraged and disencentivized from bettering themselves, so they improve their lives by learning better how to work the system.

Eta: I wrote most of this before lunch so didn’t see the last couple of replies, but I would say structure the system so that people are incentivized to work rather than the reverse. Make it so when people start to work, usually at low levels of pay, that telhey benefit rather than lose out.

That way we will also be encouraging virtue, which is what we are supposed to be doing, rather than encouraging vice.
 
One of the many problems we have in the US with welfare is the same one you just mentioned: there is a cit-off point. So, for us this frequently comes into play with health insurance: if a family makes under $X, they do not have to pay for health insurance, but if they make $X+$1, they have to pay for their own if their employer doesn’t pay for it. Because it costs between $6,000 and $12,000 depending on where you live, that’s a hefty load.

If there were a gradual reduction, one which favored working and earning more, then people who dind themselves in these situations would be encouraged to work and improve themselves. As it is, they are actually discouraged and disencentivized from bettering themselves, so they improve their lives by learning better how to work the system.

Eta: I wrote most of this before lunch so didn’t see the last couple of replies, but I would say structure the system so that people are incentivized to work rather than the reverse. Make it so when people start to work, usually at low levels of pay, that telhey benefit rather than lose out.

That way we will also be encouraging virtue, which is what we are supposed to be doing, rather than encouraging vice.
Good post, it is a real sticky problem isn’t it?

I had a guy apply for a job who was earning £15,000 a year. I offered him £18,000, but that would have pushed him over an income line and he would have lost his housing benefit. He needed to increase his salary from £15,000 to at least £24,000 in order to cover the shortfall. That’s quite a jump!
 
vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_15051961_mater_en.html

This entire encyclical would probably be of interest to you, but here is a clip that I thought might be particularly useful.
Personal Initiative and State Intervention
  1. And in this work of directing, stimulating, co-ordinating, supplying and integrating, its guiding principle must be the “principle of subsidiary function” formulated by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno. (24) “This is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, unshaken and unchangeable. . . Just as it is wrong to withdraw from the individual and commit to a community what private enterprise and industry can accomplish, so too it is an injustice, a grave evil and a disturbance of right order, for a larger and higher association to arrogate to itself functions which can be performed efficiently by smaller and lower societies. Of its very nature the true aim of all social activity should be to help members of the social body, but never to destroy or absorb them.” (25)
  1. The present advance in scientific knowledge and productive technology clearly puts it within the power of the public authority to a much greater degree than ever before to reduce imbalances which may exist between different branches of the economy or between different regions within the same country or even between the different peoples of the world. It also puts into the hands of public authority a greater means for limiting fluctuations in the economy and for providing effective measures to prevent the recurrence of mass unemployment. Hence the insistent demands on those in authority—since they are responsible for the common good—to increase the degree and scope of their activities in the economic sphere, and to devise ways and means and set the necessary machinery in motion for the attainment of this end.
  1. But however extensive and far-reaching the influence of the State on the economy may be, it must never be exerted to the extent of depriving the individual citizen of his freedom of action. It must rather augment his freedom while effectively guaranteeing the protection of his essential personal rights. Among these is a man’s right and duty to be primarily responsible for his own upkeep and that of his family. Hence every economic system must permit and facilitate the free development of productive activity.
  1. Moreover, as history itself testifies with ever-increasing clarity, there can be no such thing as a well-ordered and prosperous society unless individual citizens and the State co-operate in the economy. Both sides must work together in harmony, and their respective efforts must be proportioned to the needs of the common good in the prevailing circumstances and conditions of human life.
  1. Experience has shown that where personal initiative is lacking, political tyranny ensues and, in addition, economic stagnation in the production of a wide range of consumer goods and of services of the material and spiritual order—those, namely, which are in a great measure dependent upon the exercise and stimulus of individual creative talent.
  1. Where, on the other hand, the good offices of the State are lacking or deficient, incurable disorder ensues: in particular, the unscrupulous exploitation of the weak by the strong. For men of this stamp are always in evidence, and, like cockle among the wheat, thrive in every land.
 
How is it your brother “finds” himself in such a condition?

columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/teresa94.html

"If you become a burning light of justice and peace in the world, then really you will be true to what the founders of this country stood for. God bless you! "

peace
The interesting thing is that before the Protestant Revolt, there was little need for a government-funded “socail safety net;” monks and nuns helped the poor and the needy. There were lepersauriums in England run by monks (and I guess some run by nuns). This is why you don’t hear much about lepers after NT times.

In Belgium there was a whole town devoted to the care of the mentally ill.

But all this ended when the rulers who became Protestant took the property of the monasteries and turned the religious out.
 
The OP raises an interesting point but it is difficult to dissect the issue into real terms. At first glance this looks like an absurd amount of money for a family to receive, but as usual the tangle is political spinning rather than fact.

The Church has recognized a de facto bill of rights that are “based on the nature of the human person and on his transcendent dignity.” These rights are drawn from the many social encyclicals that have been written in the last 120 years, and are summarized and listed in paragraph 301 of the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.
(I have only included the ones relevant to the welfare state of those unemployed ot unable to work. These are part of a much wider set of teachings on people, wages and living conditions etc.)
They are:
The right to appropriate subsidies necessary for the subsistence of unemployed workers and their families.

The right to a pension and to insurance for old age, sickness, and in case of work-related accidents.

The right to social security connected with maternity.

The Catholic Social teaching is the right for a family to subsist with dignity --the Church advocates that a family/person have the money to eat, live and afford basic needs - healthcare, heat etc.

The issue in the UK is not as clear cut as it looks – this amount quoted sounds obscene but the reality is actually a little different: The issue is over the cost of housing – which should not be attacked through the people who need this money to survive but the landlords who traditionally charge more to the government than to someone renting privately.

The reason the Bishops in the UK defeated this bill in the Lords was based on the real impact on punishing the families and children for something they can not control – rent costs. This needs to be handled in a different way.

This bill is targeted for those FAMILIES who have totals including all benefits above this value --but if you examine the real figures the picture is a lot different … the actual issue is with landlords and what they charge the governments for homes for those people.

The best way to look at is by the average family of 2 parents and 3 children (where the majority of people would have been affected. This could be not just those unemployed but adults on disability (certainly not something they can control) or those working but unable to reach a living wage as well. It would punish those who are trying to work and those who simply can not work. In the average family case the REAL money they live on is less than 10,000GBP. With the potential for CHILD TAX CREDIT of an additional 8000GBP.

The rest of the headline figure never reaches the families direct and let’s be honest for 17,000GBP in LONDON rents no one is living in a mansion. But even breaking it down demonstrates that the issue isn’t with the direct benefits but the landlords charges – and the government does not regulate this and should.

If the limit was placed then this hypothetical family would be living on 8,000GBP per year - to pay bills -heat, water, clothes, food, etc. and lets not forget that people can not stay on jobseekers forever --only in the past few years has this been amended so you can feasibly only receive this for 16weeks, and then it could drop to pretty much nothing.

On this debate i think the OP would need to examine what is right and “just” to expect someone to support a family on and not assume that it is simply people being lazy, as the bill was aimed and the disabled, the low income households as well.

Those are my thoughts anyway … i think the Bishops and other groups were right to stop this bill --it punishes those who aren’t well off, and would have still enabled those people better off (and not on low incomes or benefits) to claim the CHILD TAX BENEFIT and CHILD BENEFIT --hardly appropriate at all.🙂
 
Hi Essie,
I thought in England that they had council housing for those with little money?
 
Hi Essie,
I thought in England that they had council housing for those with little money?
Hi,

They do but it is very rare you get the waiting lists are HUGE and usually about 6-8 months.

They direct you to private housing which accepts housing benefit. Although there is always short term emergency housing but this is normally highly unsuitable for long tern needs, especially in the case of the people targeted by this bills…as its rarely anything more than a shelter and not designed for families.
 
Hi,

They do but it is very rare you get the waiting lists are HUGE and usually about 6-8 months.

They direct you to private housing which accepts housing benefit. Although there is always short term emergency housing but this is normally highly unsuitable for long tern needs, especially in the case of the people targeted by this bills…as its rarely anything more than a shelter and not designed for families.
Great post essie7777, thank you very much for taking the time to contribute to the discussion!

Council housing is prioritised, if you have children you’re put to the top of the list and property becomes available fairly promptly in my experience. Part of the problem is that benefit claimants are bemoaning the fact that they may have to move locality in order to be housed, or in order that rents may match their adjusted benefits.

Another element is that the media hi lights cases where a family on benefit, has ten children and end up living in a huge house, paid for by the tax payer, and receiving £100,000 a year in benefits when in reality this would seem to be extremely rare.

Some families may also fall into unemployment through redundancy or similar causes and have no option but to rely on benefits until they can find work.
 
Council housing is prioritised, if you have children you’re put to the top of the list and property becomes available fairly promptly in my experience. Part of the problem is that benefit claimants are bemoaning the fact that they may have to move locality in order to be housed, or in order that rents may match their adjusted benefits.
Absolutely though i am not sure its a simple as people simply moaning for no just reason. I am sure there are cases such as this, but it can be made harder on families if they have to move from where they have some support system, like for example people on low incomes who have close family and fiends near by who give cheap or no cost child care so they can work, a move far from them means they are forced into a position where they may have to give up a job that becomes financially unmanageable.

Its a really difficult situation and i don’t think there are any easy answers.

I’m British but live in the US and have to say i am very proud of the British system as whilst there are always places to improve and be more efficient i costings and to prevent abuse, it serves a greater purpose. There may be media stories of people being left “hanging” occasionally but as a rule our older generations do not have to worry about being too cold in winter, all of our children are given equal financial support to get the best start and out most vulnerable members of society, those hurt, disabled, mentally ill are cared for with compassion, dignity and observance to the fact that they are as human and normal as the rest of us and deserve a home and comfort the same as any one else. We no longer rely on Victorian “poor” house and institutions which strip people of their inherent dignity and individualism. And that is a great thing.
Some families may also fall into unemployment through redundancy or similar causes and have no option but to rely on benefits until they can find work.
I was raised with the belief that a country’s strength is judged solely on it’s treatment of the most vulnerable, whether they be ill or simply in a “bad spot”. As a country i think we do that pretty well. And as a British person i am more then confident that this shows who we are and what we stand for - just, equal rights for everyone irrespective of their bank balance.
Another element is that the media hi lights cases where a family on benefit, has ten children and end up living in a huge house, paid for by the tax payer, and receiving £100,000 a year in benefits when in reality this would seem to be extremely rare.
Shame really about the media, there’s always going to be an oddity and a sensational story but they simply detract from the good our system does as a whole. My understanding from the statistics is that families with 10 children number just 190 on benefit in the UK. And again, discounting the occasional abnormal case of system abuse, they receive only more money for CHILD BENEFIT and CHILD TAX CREDIT which is dependent of the number of children and proportional as such. The reality is that this equates to real cash difference between the average 3 child family and a 10 child family of simply 5,000GBP. Hardly enough to push them to anywhere near the 100,000GBP mark.

The discrepancy comes again when looking at rental rates that are paid for housing benefit , and an assumed TAX CREDIT that depends on income and varies even for families with 10 children.
 
Can anyone help me with a better understanding of the relationship between welfare & what the Church teaches?

Bear in mind I’m from the UK. There’s a big debate going on over here at the moment about benefits

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16675314

news.sky.com/home/politics/article/16154476

I have a feeling that the principle of subsidiarity is relevant, also the prevalent idea in the UK is the welfare is good & looks after people. However we end up with families who have been on benefits now for two or three generations. Is it fair to say that the Church teaches that everyone needs to do the best they can to support themselves and live off their own means. However if they can’t, society intervenes and makes sure that they can live and they don’t starve.

Can anyone explain this to me with reference to the relevant social encyclicals?

Can we demonstrate that welfare is self perpetuating?
I don’t know. I’m looking for a good solid answer as well. Because from the way I interpret the Encyclicals, the government shouldn’t provide welfare (directly), but only groups that aren’t government run. This is why I like the corporatist welfare model (I think that’s the German model). But Medicare in the U.S is run directly by the government, so that would technically be incompatible with my understanding of the Church on welfare. But the USCCB has consistently supported social security and those government welfare programs, and since the bishops probably understand the Church teaching on welfare better than I do, I would like to understand how you can support those programs that are government run yet seem to be against Encyclical teaching. Help would be appreciated. 🙂
 
I don’t know. I’m looking for a good solid answer as well. Because from the way I interpret the Encyclicals, the government shouldn’t provide welfare (directly), but only groups that aren’t government run. This is why I like the corporatist welfare model (I think that’s the German model). But Medicare in the U.S is run directly by the government, so that would technically be incompatible with my understanding of the Church on welfare. But the USCCB has consistently supported social security and those government welfare programs, and since the bishops probably understand the Church teaching on welfare better than I do, I would like to understand how you can support those programs that are government run yet seem to be against Encyclical teaching. Help would be appreciated. 🙂
I am sure that there are a lot of different interpretations of Catholic Social teaching on this issue. Personally i don’t read the encyclicals as being against a welfare state, rather against a social assistance state that over reaches its bounds and takes away fundamental rights of responsibility from the people it is trying to help.

I think the Catholic teachings from the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, CCC, encyclicals and Papal speeches and letters all combine to offer balanced view, and advocate that all elements must be in play for a welfare state to work, state, NGOs, charities and the individuals.

There may be cause for critics to suggest that there should be changes made in a specific welfare state, but in the case of the UK this combination of “authorities” have always worked together to provide welfare to those who need it. Even in the specific case of this bill in the UK when you get past the rhetoric and look at the financial figures … 2/3 of “benefit” in these examples cited are for CHILDREN not adults. The direct monetary benefit for the adults is less than 4000GBP (around $7000) per year. They ensure that the child is protected, cared for and has access to basic rights and the families have the money to food and clothe them, and certainly not to the extreme levels quoted in the media. It doesn’t take long to actually find the information and see that the media is hyping a situation for headlines.

However, apologies for the slight digression off point there: in respect to Catholic Teaching I would not usually advocate looking at any media for a “round up of views” as i am a staunch believer that Catholic teaching provides all the answers without the need for third party books and comments…but the following is a really good article that brings together both sides of this debate and offers a more balnced approach to some of the issues of a welfare state. crisismagazine.com/2009/the-minimum-wage-and-catholic-social-teaching

It looks at the liberal and conservative viewpoint but you may find it useful as an overview.
 
FightingFat #1
Can anyone help me with a better understanding of the relationship between welfare & what the Church teaches?
I have a feeling that the principle of subsidiarity is relevant, also the prevalent idea in the UK is the welfare is good & looks after people. However we end up with families who have been on benefits now for two or three generations. Is it fair to say that the Church teaches that everyone needs to do the best they can to support themselves and live off their own means. However if they can’t, society intervenes and makes sure that they can live and they don’t starve.
Can anyone explain this to me with reference to the relevant social encyclicals?
Certainly Bl JPII is very clear in Centesimus Annus, 1991, #48 in condemning the Welfare State:
“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100”
“Note
100. Pius XI, Encyclical Letter Quadragesimo Anno, I : loc. cit., 184-186.”

Note that the Welfare State is “dubbed the ‘Social Assistance State’. Since “dubbed” = nicknamed, there is no distinction-- they are one and the same.

So, what is the principle task of the State? Bl JPII in CA:
“48. Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principle task of the State is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labours and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. The absence of stability, together with the corruption of public officials and the spread of improper sources of growing rich and of easy profits deriving from illegal or purely speculative activities, constitutes one of the chief obstacles to development and to the economic order.
Can we demonstrate that welfare is self perpetuating?
You’ve done that by the fact of families being on state welfare “for two or three generations”.

And Bl JPII explains why:
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.”
 
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