The well meaning Protestants....

[Semper_Zelare]

The Lutheran Church MS, and several Anglican denominations still have only male clergy, and supports almost all the same values that the Catholic Church does…save perhaps ABC. You cannot hold one synod of Lutheranism or Anglicanism responsible for the choices and decisions of another. Also remeber the old saying about people in glass houses, the Catholic Church itself has throughout history been embroiled in some pretty bad scandals…some of which actually sparked the Refromation. While they have managed to fix most of them, and it has not had a huge effect on the doctrine they preach today, it is an historical fact that protestants do not have the singular license on having people or sections of our churches fall to sin.

Also ALL protestant churches are NOT descendent from Luthernism or Anglicanism, many that trace their roots back to the reformation actually are the products of Calvin, Zwingli, or other theologians of the time. Puritans would be absolutely insulted by the insinuation that they were in any way realated to Anglicanism. As for the non denominational churchs of today they are a product of the last 100-200 years and have little to nothing in common with the High Litergical churchs of the Reformation.

To try and blame all liberal theology that is prevelant today on Lutherans and Anglicans is grasping at straws at best.

1. Puritans would be insulted by that? I didn’t even know Puritans still existed. I just googled “do puritans” and the top result on auto complete was “… still exist?”. How many Puritans even exist today?
   And even if they are descenent from Calvin or Zwingli… STILL NOT ABLE TO FULFILL Matthew 16:18.
2. Scandals related to Bishops disobedient to edicts of the Holy See and priests under them is not the same as doctrinal heresy. Almost the same values isn’t good enough. What doctrine of the Catholic Church comes from modernism? We have caved in on nothing, including Abortive Birth Control.

 

[happymommy]

My wife told a friend she was in RCIA, her friend responded: “Don’t you know you can Pray to Jesus?” I call them well meaning, I think they are not TRUE anti Catholic as such (Jack Chick and the like) they truly never have studied the Church Catholic, like the Jesus comment, I myself have an EO type 33 bead I have reflected with, one variant, "Lord Jesus Christ , thou son of the Living God, Guide me, Bless me, and Protect me, Amen. " As well as other variants of a “Jesus Prayer” I went to Catholic School, even before becoming Catholic, I have heard Catholics …Pray…Father God…in the Name of your Blessed Son Christ Jesus. " I hear as a Catholic Prayers without invocation of Mary or Saints…really I find it less insulting than amazing they feel in 2000 years we are unaware of this and are “tipping a great secret”. You guys ever hit the well meaning (not antiCatholic) Protestant and hear a thing like this, it is as if you have a 1000 things to say and nothing…if that makes sense, you are in mind boggle…sensory overload??? So…raise your hands if ya did NOT know you could Prat to Jesus?

I overheard my dad ( Protestant, not really Anit-Catholic, but pretty close! ) telling one of his friends, also Protestant, that the Catholic Church has come a long way because we believe in Jesus now!

 

[MarkBrown]

Keep in mind that many of the Anglican priests who are converting would not be doing so if the Anglican church were not departing from doctrine it has embraced in the past. The offer from Rome came only AFTER the Anglican leadership threw doctrine to the wind. It has less to do with being “led” to believe the Catholic Church is right than the fact that the Anglican leadership has made some really BAD choices about leaving the true doctrine. Basically many Anglicans are upset with the changes in their church and would like to fight back against them, the see these priest who are leaving as people who deserted rather than try and help fix the problem. .

As an Anglican Priest who is converting, I see you are only partly correct. For decades the Anglican Communion has approached both the Catholic and Orthodox churches discussing union. In the 60’s Anglicanism went off the rails so to speak. Scripture, authority and tradition were abandoned by Anglicanism. Bishop Pike, read about him, springs to mind. Denied the resurrection for one thing. Anglicanism has always had a nebulous core belief. Holding to the 39 Articles is not required, except for CoE clergy. Doctrines are voted on in Synod as Synod consists of Bishops, Clergy and laity. Simple majority changes theology and authority. Due to this Catholicism and Orthodoxy knew there would never be unity. Some Anglicans saw this, others stayed to fight for the faith.
Most Anglicans are low church in liturgy and very protestant in theology. Those who are coming to Rome are the more Catholic in theology etc. As to Bishops have authority in the Anglican Communion…no, not there. The PB of the TEC is making a power grab and even the liberals are getting upset as she is changing the power of a bishop.

In the 1980’s groups and individual approach John Paul II. In the states priests and parishes came into the church. Unfortunately it was left to the local Bishop, a mistake the current Pope is not making. IN England the 1990’s saw a large group of Anglicans convert. In 1993, Anglicans began asking to come in corporately. In 2009 Rome responded. 2011 the Ordinariate in the UK was established and should be established in the States, Canada and Australia also this year.

Those Anglicans going to Rome have been lead to the belief that Catholicism is correct.( I read the Catechism and had approach the local Diocese prior to the Pope’s announcement.) The moral failures of the Anglican Communion reinforce this, and the moral failures of a certain minority of priest inthe Church show what happens when one walks away from Christian teaching. Most Anglicans leaving the communion, and the ACNA is not in the Communion nor are the Continuing Churches or other splinter groups, are going not to Rome or orthodoxy, but to splinter groups and other protestant denominations.

We, collectively, who are leaving…no we are shipwrecked. Anglicanism shows what happens with out a rudder or a rock to anchor oneself. The Anglican Communion left us adrift. The Shepard is gathering the sheep. We fought, but even Christ tells us a time comes to shake the dust from your feet.

Do I pray for the Anglican Communion and my Anglican friends? Yes I do. I have no ill will towards them. I pray God’s mercy and protection.

Fr Mark

 

[Alix1912]

1. Puritans would be insulted by that? I didn’t even know Puritans still existed. I just googled “do puritans” and the top result on auto complete was “… still exist?”. How many Puritans even exist today?
   And even if they are descenent from Calvin or Zwingli… STILL NOT ABLE TO FULFILL Matthew 16:18…

It doesn’t matter if Puritans exist today, your arguement that all protestant churches come from Luther or Anglicanism is false. Also Matthew 16:18 doesn’t asy ANYTHING about a pope or a magisterium, or the church being based in Rome, or that all authority belonged to a pope. No one disputes the importance of Peter, they are just disputing the sole authority claimed by an organization that grew up over centuries and has been mainly created by man. You cannot keep screaming we have authority to people who don’t believe you have authority, it is a circular arguement. That would be like yelling we are the one true faith to someone who is Buddhist.

1. Scandals related to Bishops disobedient to edicts of the Holy See and priests under them is not the same as doctrinal heresy. Almost the same values isn’t good enough. What doctrine of the Catholic Church comes from modernism? We have caved in on nothing, including Abortive Birth Control.

1. ABC is artifical birth control, not abortive birth control. The Lutherans MS have no issue with barrier methods, but are avidly against abortion.
2. The abuses that spurred the Reformation were not just a few bishops, it was a pattern of abuse of power and corruption that have been going on for decades, in some areas centuries…it could even be argued that it was institutionalized. It may not have been offical doctrine, it may have even flown in the face of offical doctrine, but it was going on and it was not isolated incidents. The fact that the Catholic Church managed to fix a lot of it over the centuries is very commendable, and I agree with many Lutheran Pastors that Luther would probably have little or no issue with the Catholic Church of today. However you cannot acuse others of being churches frought with sins, without recognizing your own church has struggled with that too.

 

[Alix1912]

As an Anglican Priest who is converting, I see you are only partly correct. For decades the Anglican Communion has approached both the Catholic and Orthodox churches discussing union. In the 60’s Anglicanism went off the rails so to speak. Scripture, authority and tradition were abandoned by Anglicanism. Bishop Pike, read about him, springs to mind. Denied the resurrection for one thing. Anglicanism has always had a nebulous core belief. Holding to the 39 Articles is not required, except for CoE clergy. Doctrines are voted on in Synod as Synod consists of Bishops, Clergy and laity. Simple majority changes theology and authority. Due to this Catholicism and Orthodoxy knew there would never be unity. Some Anglicans saw this, others stayed to fight for the faith.
Most Anglicans are low church in liturgy and very protestant in theology. Those who are coming to Rome are the more Catholic in theology etc. As to Bishops have authority in the Anglican Communion…no, not there. The PB of the TEC is making a power grab and even the liberals are getting upset as she is changing the power of a bishop.

In the 1980’s groups and individual approach John Paul II. In the states priests and parishes came into the church. Unfortunately it was left to the local Bishop, a mistake the current Pope is not making. IN England the 1990’s saw a large group of Anglicans convert. In 1993, Anglicans began asking to come in corporately. In 2009 Rome responded. 2011 the Ordinariate in the UK was established and should be established in the States, Canada and Australia also this year.

Those Anglicans going to Rome have been lead to the belief that Catholicism is correct.( I read the Catechism and had approach the local Diocese prior to the Pope’s announcement.) The moral failures of the Anglican Communion reinforce this, and the moral failures of a certain minority of priest inthe Church show what happens when one walks away from Christian teaching. Most Anglicans leaving the communion, and the ACNA is not in the Communion nor are the Continuing Churches or other splinter groups, are going not to Rome or orthodoxy, but to splinter groups and other protestant denominations.

We, collectively, who are leaving…no we are shipwrecked. Anglicanism shows what happens with out a rudder or a rock to anchor oneself. The Anglican Communion left us adrift. The Shepard is gathering the sheep. We fought, but even Christ tells us a time comes to shake the dust from your feet.

Do I pray for the Anglican Communion and my Anglican friends? Yes I do. I have no ill will towards them. I pray God’s mercy and protection.

Fr Mark

Thanks for the information. We have several Anglican friends whos pastors and congregations are really struggling with this situation. You insight is great.

 

[Bev17243]

Unfortunalty there is a lot of misinformation about the Catholic Church out there. As a protestant who considers themselves fairly educated on the Catholic church, I cannot figure out for the life of me how these rumors persist.

I understand how the move through the rabid anti catholic crowd, but how they make their way into other groups baffles me. I also do not understand the anti Catholic sentiment either…seriously I must not be a very passionate person, because there are very few things I’m rabidly anti.

Seriously, I grew up learning the actual difference between my denomination and others in my confirmation classes, and through actually getting to know friends who were different religons. I’m all for debating the differences that are real and true, but I can’t stand the “Catholic’s worship idols”, “Catholics pray to Saints/Mary instead of Jesus”, or the ever popular “Catholic’s don’t read the Bible”. Feel free to critique a religon on it’s actual merits and doctrine, but leave the false stuff out of it.

that would be my spouse-all thanks to lies and half-truths that he has been fed all of his life. . Since i’m considering converting and he so anti-Catholic, that is going to be very hard to deal with

 

[ETEXAS]

What 16-posts and the jokes turned to anger which underneath is hurt. All this while we live in whats considered an abomination on earth now. The US has become satans playground.

Do you not see how this plays right into the hand of evil, or do you not believe it exists?

The Pope is the anti-christ, thats how over the edge jokes turn to lies, then turn to belief by fools. While we laugh our way to the slaughter house.

My question being the USA is majority Protestant what are YOU doing to correct this abomination beside being worried about idol worship in the CC? Geez you’ve identified the US problem’s. The Pope, idol worship, confession, the Saints. Doctrines of Mary… wow we are on the right track

May God have Mercy on us.

Gary

Gary, I think the anger/hurt comes from, anti-Catholics, (I understand where you are coming from on that…) I called this well meaning Protestants, as one individual put it well, they really re not aware of the Church teachings…these are not the sort who have…stacks of Chick Comics pilled about! Really I THINK they mean well, you meet some, and they express no HATE…it is more…confusion…for lack of a better phrase.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

1. ABC is artifical birth control, not abortive birth control. The Lutherans MS have no issue with barrier methods, but are avidly against abortion.
2. The abuses that spurred the Reformation were not just a few bishops, it was a pattern of abuse of power and corruption that have been going on for decades, in some areas centuries…it could even be argued that it was institutionalized. It may not have been offical doctrine, it may have even flown in the face of offical doctrine, but it was going on and it was not isolated incidents. The fact that the Catholic Church managed to fix a lot of it over the centuries is very commendable, and I agree with many Lutheran Pastors that Luther would probably have little or no issue with the Catholic Church of today. However you cannot acuse others of being churches frought with sins, without recognizing your own church has struggled with that too.

1. When you use the words “pattern of abuse, power, and corruption, that was institutionalized in areas”. You never lay it at the door of the Church. If you did it would be wrongly placed. Abuses of power and corruption ALL came from the State interfering with the Church. I did not say “a few Bishops” that is putting words in my mouth. The exact words I wrote were:
   "Scandals related to Bishops disobedient to edicts of the Holy See".
   There were many, many Bishops who were not loyal to the Pope, but loyal to the emperor of the HRE, the Kings, Princes, and Lords of Spain, France, Germany, and elsewhere. The Catholic Church fixed the situation by finally gaining more power than secular rulers. Every one of those secular monarchies have fallen, but the Catholic Church remains. So, that’s what occurred historically.

Why were none of the Reformers Italian? Because the Pope had the loyalty of ALL the Bishops of Italy. All the abuses that took place, took place outside the auspices where the Pope was the authority to the Bishops, ie: HRE, Spain, France, Germany, even Switzerland was far away enough from Rome to be disobedient to the teachings of the faith.

1. Birth control is a sin. I refuse to label sins with nifty little acronyms, so I’ll call it: abortive birth control, because I have the freedom to mock the evil of satan.

Besides all of that though… you’ve effectively managed to derail the debate.

I was talking about the moral failings of the doctrines in the Anglican and Lutheran churches… and OK, you belong to the 5th largest group of Lutherans… so, I didn’t know you had all male clergy unlike the others. But, you still admit to the moral failing of birth control.

What doctrines of the Catholic Church would you consider a moral failing, in the way that Mark Brown so concisely called the failings of the Anglican Communion?

 

[RyanBlack]

1. When you use the words “pattern of abuse, power, and corruption, that was institutionalized in areas”. You never lay it at the door of the Church. If you did it would be wrongly placed. Abuses of power and corruption ALL came from the State interfering with the Church. I did not say “a few Bishops” that is putting words in my mouth. The exact words I wrote were:
   "Scandals related to Bishops disobedient to edicts of the Holy See".
   There were many, many Bishops who were not loyal to the Pope, but loyal to the emperor of the HRE, the Kings, Princes, and Lords of Spain, France, Germany, and elsewhere. The Catholic Church fixed the situation by finally gaining more power than secular rulers. Every one of those secular monarchies have fallen, but the Catholic Church remains. So, that’s what occurred historically.

Why were none of the Reformers Italian? Because the Pope had the loyalty of ALL the Bishops of Italy. All the abuses that took place, took place outside the auspices where the Pope was the authority to the Bishops, ie: HRE, Spain, France, Germany, even Switzerland was far away enough from Rome to be disobedient to the teachings of the faith.

1. Birth control is a sin. I refuse to label sins with nifty little acronyms, so I’ll call it: abortive birth control, because I have the freedom to mock the evil of satan.

Besides all of that though… you’ve effectively managed to derail the debate.

I was talking about the moral failings of the doctrines in the Anglican and Lutheran churches… and OK, you belong to the 5th largest group of Lutherans… so, I didn’t know you had all male clergy unlike the others. But, you still admit to the moral failing of birth control.

What doctrines of the Catholic Church would you consider a moral failing, in the way that Mark Brown so concisely called the failings of the Anglican Communion?

Let’s have some historical and intellectual honesty. All the abuses that took place did so in areas beyond the control of the Pope? That’s absurd. What about cases in which the abuses were done by the Pope himself? Are you going to blame that on state interference? I’m not saying that you blame it on the mystical body of Christ, but let’s be honest here. There were clerics, including some of the bishops of Rome, whose conduct was cause for public scandal and helped usher in the Reformation. Blaming that on state interference, especially in those cases where the cleric in question is a pope like, oh, let’s say Alexander VI, makes it look as if we are afraid of the truths of history. Also, your statement that none of the Reformers were Italian is simply false. The most well-known reformers were not Italian, and the Reformation had no lasting impact in Italy, but to say that there were no Italian Reformers is untrue. Peter Martyr Vermigli comes to mind right away. There were others–they are not as well known as Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Knox, but there were indeed Italian Reformers.

 

[Randy_Carson]

My wife told a friend she was in RCIA, her friend responded: “Don’t you know you can Pray to Jesus?” I call them well meaning, I think they are not TRUE anti Catholic as such (Jack Chick and the like) they truly never have studied the Church Catholic, like the Jesus comment, I myself have an EO type 33 bead I have reflected with, one variant, "Lord Jesus Christ , thou son of the Living God, Guide me, Bless me, and Protect me, Amen. " As well as other variants of a “Jesus Prayer” I went to Catholic School, even before becoming Catholic, I have heard Catholics …Pray…Father God…in the Name of your Blessed Son Christ Jesus. " I hear as a Catholic Prayers without invocation of Mary or Saints…really I find it less insulting than amazing they feel in 2000 years we are unaware of this and are “tipping a great secret”. You guys ever hit the well meaning (not antiCatholic) Protestant and hear a thing like this, it is as if you have a 1000 things to say and nothing…if that makes sense, you are in mind boggle…sensory overload??? So…raise your hands if ya did NOT know you could Prat to Jesus?

Why pray to Jesus when I can talk to his mother instead?

I have a life-size statue of her in the den whenever I need it…

Yes, I’m kidding, people…calm down…

 

[GaryTaylor]

No secrets, its the systematic breakdown of the Kingdom of God by the denial of different values within that Kingdom.

Its the design of evil. To be able to always see it coming, would also deny the fact that satan is who he is, and was in Gods Kingdom.

Look at evil in the past and how it attacked Christianity. Never once did they see it coming. Always God sent someone who seen the forest from above the tree’s, but the war was always waged first. To think about logically, it couldn’t be any other way. That would mean God would go on the “offense” first. Never in the History of the world does that happen.

This time the war is not waged by a Nation, its a World Wide plan of distaster. Make no mistake about it, you are witnessing the Grand Finale. How that plays out in “real time” we don’t know. Maybe we see it this decade, maybe not for 50-years. But we are living in the hour given to evil. If you don’t think this is evil you are seeing, then your simply not seeing.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Alix1912]

1. When you use the words “pattern of abuse, power, and corruption, that was institutionalized in areas”. You never lay it at the door of the Church. If you did it would be wrongly placed. Abuses of power and corruption ALL came from the State interfering with the Church. I did not say “a few Bishops” that is putting words in my mouth. The exact words I wrote were:
   "Scandals related to Bishops disobedient to edicts of the Holy See".
   There were many, many Bishops who were not loyal to the Pope, but loyal to the emperor of the HRE, the Kings, Princes, and Lords of Spain, France, Germany, and elsewhere. The Catholic Church fixed the situation by finally gaining more power than secular rulers. Every one of those secular monarchies have fallen, but the Catholic Church remains. So, that’s what occurred historically.

Why were none of the Reformers Italian? Because the Pope had the loyalty of ALL the Bishops of Italy. All the abuses that took place, took place outside the auspices where the Pope was the authority to the Bishops, ie: HRE, Spain, France, Germany, even Switzerland was far away enough from Rome to be disobedient to the teachings of the faith.

There actually was a reformation in Italy it lasted about 70 years, before the Vatican crushed it with the Italian Inquisition. The leaders were either killed, jailed, or had to flee to Switzerland and France. It’s failure had little to do with the faith of bishops and more to do with the violent reaction of the Vatican.

Also it is widely accepted that the Reformation was actually the final breaking of the secular power of the Vatican. Also many of the abuses that were being practiced in the Catholic Church at the time were sanctioned unoffically or offically by Rome. Example: the sale of indulgences, which helped fund many of the buildings in the Vatican and Rome today. You cannot simply deny the corruption that has been present in the Catholic Church at various times in the past simply because you don’t want to acknowledge it. There were and are bad people and things that go on in any structure of governance be it secular or religious as they are all created by and upheld by men who are sinful in nature.

1. Birth control is a sin. I refuse to label sins with nifty little acronyms, so I’ll call it: abortive birth control, because I have the freedom to mock the evil of satan.

Just because you chose to call something by an incorrect name doesn’t make that name correct or accurate, it just means you are trying to either mislead or be contrary. Abortion is the termination of an existing human life. Preventing an egg and sperm from meeting is not abortion. You can call Artifical Birth Control abortive, which is accurate when refering to things like an IUD or certain types of the Pill, but it is false when applied to barrier methods. Calling a barrier method abortive is like calling a cat a dog…you can do that if you want, but a cat is still a cat. As to the sinfulness of ABC that is one of the things that the LCMS and the Catholic Church differ on.

I was talking about the moral failings of the doctrines in the Anglican and Lutheran churches… and OK, you belong to the 5th largest group of Lutherans… so, I didn’t know you had all male clergy unlike the others. But, you still admit to the moral failing of birth control.

What doctrines of the Catholic Church would you consider a moral failing, in the way that Mark Brown so concisely called the failings of the Anglican Communion?

Actually the LCMS is the 2nd largest group of Lutherans in the US. Ironically we may soon be the largest as the ELCA is coming apart at the seems over it’s moral issues. Also the WELS, the 3rd largest group, also reserves membership in the clergy to only Men as do several groups of Anglicans. I would not say that the Catholic Church is free from Moral failings…your own Pope John Paul II said the Church is a Hospital for Sinners. All Churches have issues and failings they have to address, they have leaders who have failed through out their histories, they have strayed from their teachings and struggled…it’s a given because we are humans and we are sinful.

However, just a side note…rather than focus on the differences and scream “We have authority and you don’t” at each other we should recognize that Satan is very effectively chipping away at Christianity in General. We are rapidly becoming a persecuted religon and our values are under attack. It would be far more prudent for the High Litergical Church in particular to admit there are minor differences between denominations, but on the whole we are pretty aligned on most things. We can stand together against the onslat or we can perish individually. People who simply cannot see past the differences to try and work together just aid the Devil in his attempt to destroy all believers.

On a personal side note…as someone married to a Catholic, one of the main reasons I would not convert is the Holier than Thou attitude that has been exhibited on occasion by Catholics. Calling things by their incorrect name simply to try and mislead and make fun of people, saying my church has Moral Failings without addressing the failings of their own church, and generally acting superior does not present the Catholic Church in a very applying way. Your church has a beautiful and rich tradition, but it can be hard to see when some of it’s members are so snarky to other faiths. Lucky for me my husband and most of the Catholics I grew up with are not of those types of Catholics.

Perhaps…to get back to the original debate…that is where a lot of the misconceptions and hostility come from. People who have encountered Catholics who are snarky and uncharitable towards other Christians.

 

[Alix1912]

Why pray to Jesus when I can talk to his mother instead?

I have a life-size statue of her in the den whenever I need it…

Yes, I’m kidding, people…calm down…

I love that.

I’m not Catholic, but I gained a profound admiration for Mary after becoming a Mother myself. God asked so much of her…and she did it all without complaint (At least not ones that made it into scripture). If anyone in the history of the world deserves statues and churches built in their honor, and to be assumed into heaven it was her.

I find the stories of her very comforting as I struggle to raise my own kids.

 

[Alix1912]

Let’s have some historical and intellectual honesty. All the abuses that took place did so in areas beyond the control of the Pope? That’s absurd. What about cases in which the abuses were done by the Pope himself? Are you going to blame that on state interference? I’m not saying that you blame it on the mystical body of Christ, but let’s be honest here. There were clerics, including some of the bishops of Rome, whose conduct was cause for public scandal and helped usher in the Reformation. Blaming that on state interference, especially in those cases where the cleric in question is a pope like, oh, let’s say Alexander VI, makes it look as if we are afraid of the truths of history. Also, your statement that none of the Reformers were Italian is simply false. The most well-known reformers were not Italian, and the Reformation had no lasting impact in Italy, but to say that there were no Italian Reformers is untrue. Peter Martyr Vermigli comes to mind right away. There were others–they are not as well known as Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Knox, but there were indeed Italian Reformers.

Thank you…I was getting a little annoyed too, as seen by my LOOONG response. My personal favorite crazy pope was Formosus, who they disliked so much they dugg him up and put him on trial and excommunicated him post humously…TWICE. Just to balance the scale I the english did that to Cromwell as well.

 

[wed2catholic]

Finally, I’ve never heard a Priest even mention Protestants in a sermon… let alone explain why their theological beliefs are inferior. Maybe… that’s because the Catholic Church doesn’t feel the need to respond to Protestants. Maybe they don’t have the same level of authority that requires a response (to keep the flock faithful/ from questioning, let’s say).

I have actually heard a Priest mention Protestants, and I have heard a deacon express that their beliefs are inferior, but I have heard much worse in Baptist churches. I have heard crazy things, but the most crazy thing I ever heard was that “Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection (or don’t recognize it). This is why they use crucifixes. . .and they probably worship the crucifixes.” I heard this proclaimed from a pulpit, and the sad thing is, that I acutally believed it. . .until I acutally went to a Catholic church and saw what they believed for myself. I think that some of these very close-minded people would open their minds a little bit, if they would only visit some other churches. (BTW, those same independent Baptists said bad things about other Protestants, such as Presbyterians and Anglicans too.)

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t matter if Puritans exist today, your arguement that all protestant churches come from Luther or Anglicanism is false.

All of them emanate from Luther’s heretical idea of sola scriptura. Even those that were primarily influenced by Calvin and Zwingli have this element in common.

Also Matthew 16:18 doesn't asy ANYTHING about a pope or a magisterium,

Alix, you seem like a bright individual, so I would not expect this mistake from you. I think you will accept that all of the Scripture needs to harmonize with itself. Jesus gives the Teaching Authority to the Aposltes at his Assumption, where he replaces the Seat of Moses with them, commissioning them to “teach all that I have commanded”.

The word “pope” is a later Latin term meaning “Father” that was applied to the Bishop of Rome. The other patriarchies have the same reference to their head bishop in other languages. Perhaps you are taking issue with the role of the successor of the Bishop of Rome?

or the church being based in Rome, or that all authority belonged to a pope.

Jesus revealed to Peter through the Prophet that he was going to go somewhere he did not want to go. Peter was later in Rome teaching and pastoring the Church, and was eventually martryred there. The duties and responsibilities given to him by Jesus passed to his successor. The Church, though, is based in Heaven, where Her Head is seated.

Rome became primary because both Peter and Paul labored there to enrich the deposit of faith. She had the best of both in perfection of faith and doctrine.

No one is claiming that “all authority belongs to a pope”. You seem to have an authority problem. I cannot imagine what else would cause you to state such a falsehood.

No one disputes the importance of Peter, they are just disputing the sole authority claimed by an organization that grew up over centuries and has been mainly created by man.

It seems that you have a lot to learn about the history of your faith, Alix. It is God who builds the Church, not man. Anything that has been built by man that is not within the will of God will burn.

 You cannot keep screaming we have authority to people who don't believe you have authority, it is a circular arguement.   That would be like yelling we are the one true faith to someone who is Buddhist.

I do agree about the screaming and yelling. However, all authority comes from God, and He gave it to his Apostles, and they to their successors, the bishops. Those who are not in unity with the authority given by Christ are outside the will of God. It is not circular. It is vertical.

1. ABC is artifical birth control, not abortive birth control. The Lutherans MS have no issue with barrier methods, but are avidly against abortion.

Most ABC is abortive in natrue, that is why the CC opposes it. As far as the “barrier”, I recommend JPII theology of the Body. God does not place any “barriers” between himself and us.

1. The abuses that spurred the Reformation were not just a few bishops, it was a pattern of abuse of power and corruption that have been going on for decades, in some areas centuries…it could even be argued that it was institutionalized.

Can’t argue with that.

 It may not have been offical doctrine, it may have even flown in the face of offical doctrine, but it was going on and it was not isolated incidents.

But it does really matter that it was not doctrine, because the wolves among the sheep do not define the true flock.

 The fact that the Catholic Church managed to fix a lot of it over the centuries is very commendable, and I agree with many Lutheran Pastors that Luther would probably have little or no issue with the Catholic Church of today.

What does that mean for you?

 However you cannot acuse others of being churches frought with sins, without recognizing your own church has struggled with that too.

Indeed.

 

[Alix1912]

I have actually heard a Priest mention Protestants, and I have heard a deacon express that their beliefs are inferior, but I have heard much worse in Baptist churches. I have heard crazy things, but the most crazy thing I ever heard was that “Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection (or don’t recognize it). This is why they use crucifixes. . .and they probably worship the crucifixes.” I heard this proclaimed from a pulpit, and the sad thing is, that I acutally believed it. . .until I acutally went to a Catholic church and saw what they believed for myself. I think that some of these very close-minded people would open their minds a little bit, if they would only visit some other churches. (BTW, those same independent Baptists said bad things about other Protestants, such as Presbyterians and Anglicans too.)

I think the key here is for all Christians to stop using unture or inflamatory arguements to tear any other denomination down and stick to actual, real doctrinal differences if there is going to be a debate.

I also think that a little Charity and compassion towards each other would go along way. We can actually agree to disagree on things and still be friends, and work together on the things we do agree on.

 

[ETEXAS]

LOL!! WHAT!..ok… my op did not derail…it jumped track and is in another state…BUT…I can’t part the Sea…I can’t even rescue my own thread at this point…so however this turned to…an Anglican vs…Lutheran debate…i am feeling generous! It’s yours. Rock on.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the OP topic please

 

[Jesness]

So…raise your hands if ya did NOT know you could Prat to Jesus?

Not sure if this counts; I was raised mainly a Southern Baptist with some Catholic teachings, and before I started to seriously look into my faith, I wasn’t sure you could/were supposed to pray to Jesus. I knew he was the Son of God, but I also knew that the commandment was to worship God alone. I wasn’t certain it wouldn’t be idolotry to pray to Jesus. (It’s okay, you can laugh. ) There very well may be some under educated Catholics out there who aren’t up on what the church teaches.