The well meaning Protestants....

[guanophore]

  You cannot simply deny the corruption that has been present in the Catholic Church at various times in the past simply because you don't want to acknowledge it.

Was someone trying to deny that there has been weeds among the wheat?

There were and are bad people and things that go on in any structure of governance be it secular or religious as they are all created by and upheld by men who are sinful in nature. ri

Jesus and the Apostles promised that there would be wolves among the sheep. I think where you are missing the mark, though, is with the nature of the Church. It is not founded by men, but created by God, and not upheld by men, but by the Holy Spirit. No amount of corruption can change the infallible, impeccable church. She is Holy because her Head is Holy, and she is ensouled by the HS. It is these divine elements that keep her pure. She is still pure, no matter how many of her frail members may fall into sin.

Just because you chose to call something by an incorrect name doesn't make that name correct or accurate, it just means you are trying to either mislead or be contrary.

Does this have to do with birth control?

Abortion is the termination of an existing human life. Preventing an egg and sperm from meeting is not abortion.

True, but it still is frustrating God’s plan for human reproduction.

  As to the sinfulness of ABC that is one of the things that the LCMS and the Catholic Church differ on.

And where many American Catholics disagree with God on. Have you read Theology of the Body?

the ELCA is coming apart at the seems over it's moral issues.

This is what happens when there is no final authority. It is the reason that Protestantism is in such a state of fragmentation.

I would not say that the Catholic Church is free from Moral failings....your own Pope John Paul II said the Church is a Hospital for Sinners.

Yes, but the sinners need to be distinguished from the Holy Bride, which He has purified.

   All Churches have issues and failings they have to address, they have leaders who have failed through out their histories, they have strayed from their teachings and struggled......it's a given because we are humans and we are sinful.

Yes, but His Body, like the one He took to heaven, is incarnational in nature. It has divine elements and human elements. It is the Divine elements that keep her pure.

 However, just a side note......rather than focus on the differences and scream "We have authority and you don't" at each other we should recognize that Satan is very effectively chipping away at Christianity in General.   We are rapidly becoming a persecuted religon and our values are under attack.     It would be far more prudent for the High Litergical Church in particular to admit there are minor differences between denominations, but on the whole we are pretty aligned on most things.    We can stand together against the onslat or we can perish individually.    People who simply cannot see past the differences to try and work together just aid the Devil in his attempt to destroy all believers.

It is certainly true that we need to affirm and support the Apostolic Truths no matter where they are found, and unify with our separated brethren against the insidious wiles of the devil. I agree with you, that Christians are moving toward persecution.

On a personal side note......as someone married to a Catholic, one of the main reasons I would not convert is the Holier than Thou attitude that has been exhibited on occasion by Catholics.   Calling things by their incorrect name simply to try and mislead and make fun of people, saying my church has Moral Failings without addressing the failings of their own church, and generally acting superior does not present the Catholic Church in a very applying way.

I can see why you would be put off by such behavior, as I am myself. However, a decision to obey the Lord should not be avoided just because other people are disobedient.

  Your church has a beautiful and rich tradition, but it can be hard to see when some of it's members are so snarky to other faiths.   Lucky for me my husband and most of the Catholics I grew up with are not of those types of Catholics.

Perhaps you notice it because it is necessary for you to pray for those people? Witness to them?

 Perhaps......to get back to the original debate.....that is where a lot of the misconceptions and hostility come from.    People who have encountered Catholics who are snarky and uncharitable towards other Christians.

Catholics were certainly more to blame for the Reformation than those who protested. To those whom much is given, much is required.

 

[guanophore]

I have actually heard a Priest mention Protestants, and I have heard a deacon express that their beliefs are inferior, but I have heard much worse in Baptist churches. I have heard crazy things, but the most crazy thing I ever heard was that “Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection (or don’t recognize it). This is why they use crucifixes. . .and they probably worship the crucifixes.” I heard this proclaimed from a pulpit, and the sad thing is, that I acutally believed it. . .until I acutally went to a Catholic church and saw what they believed for myself. I think that some of these very close-minded people would open their minds a little bit, if they would only visit some other churches. (BTW, those same independent Baptists said bad things about other Protestants, such as Presbyterians and Anglicans too.)

I commend you for doing your own research, and coming to your own conclusion after examining the evidence.

 

[ETEXAS]

Not sure if this counts; I was raised mainly a Southern Baptist with some Catholic teachings, and before I started to seriously look into my faith, I wasn’t sure you could/were supposed to pray to Jesus. I knew he was the Son of God, but I also knew that the commandment was to worship God alone. I wasn’t certain it wouldn’t be idolotry to pray to Jesus. (It’s okay, you can laugh. ) There very well may be some under educated Catholics out there who aren’t up on what the church teaches.

LOL! I am laughing! But in a nice way! Glad you decided aJesus Prayer was not Idolatry !

 

[Cheshangle]

I have found that many Anglicans/TEC members are very anti Catholic. This surprises me to some extent, although my father was against the Catholic Church, but considered himself more in line as far as worship as an Anglo Catholic or High Church.

I have just been going the rounds with a Continuing Anglican priest who has a website and he is one of the nastiest people one could come in contact with.

You cannot reason with him at all and he contradicts himself constantly.

It is a shame as many Anglicans love to say they are Catholic, however when it comes down to the wire, they reject the very Church that Christ built.

Of course not all Anglicans are anti Catholic, it is just that the venom that has come from some is a little shocking to me. Most of the comments are because of the Ordinariate offered to Anglicans who approached Rome. They just can’t accept the fact that these soon to be former Anglicans have made the decision that the Catholic Church is where they have been led by the Holy Spirit.

When I hear these types of comments, it just verifies my belief that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Yes we have some bigots, however, most Catholics are concerned when others leave and they will try to reason with them but don’t abuse the person. At least that is what I have seen as a Catholilc.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I can’t recall meeting (m)any anti-(Roman) Catholic Anglicans. I’m certainly not one. I’m sorry that you’ve come across them.

I’m also sorry that you don’t like us calling ourselves catholic. But my baptism certificate says that I am a member of the One, Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and I affirm that belief when I say the Nicene Creed twice weekly at Communion. Most certainly I do not reject the very Church that Christ built. Yes, the catholic church is the true church and I’m pleased to be part of it.

Unfortunately I have come across some anti-Anglican RCs, including in this forum, and have heard many sneers and jeers, often based on ignorance.

 

[LilyM]

No, of course Christ didn’t found a Church led by the Popes and centered in Rome. Obviously he founded a Church led by … Martin Luther? And centered in … Missouri? And if your church is neither of those things then why is it called the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church?

Excuse me, but your logic fails to impress. Christ established a visible Church with a leadership which is traceable back to His own Apostles, chief of whom was Peter, or He established chaos and confusion. “I follow Calvin” “I follow Wesley” “I follow Luther” - isn’t that the precise thing St Paul condemned in the followers of Apollos?

Keep in mind that many of the Anglican priests who are converting would not be doing so if the Anglican church were not departing from doctrine it has embraced in the past. The offer from Rome came only AFTER the Anglican leadership threw doctrine to the wind. It has less to do
being “led” to believe the Catholic Church is right than the fact that the Anglican leadership has made some really BAD choices about leaving the true doctrine. Basically many Anglicans are upset with the changes in their church and would like to fight back against them, the see these priest who are leaving as people who deserted rather than try and help fix the problem. The same thing is happening in the ELCA, many congregations and pastors are leaving for the LCMS or talking about breaking off into a new synod. Basically the liberal social views of some of the Leadership in both churchs is causing them to rip apart.

Also one note…just a pet peeve that sets of many protestants…many of use hold a lot in common with the Catholic Church and respect it and it’s current leadership greatly, however we find little historical or biblical backing for the current form (I am not saying it;s bad, all churches have to have a governance structure of some sort). Christ did not build a church centered in Rome lead by a pope…sorry but the structure and form of the Catholic Church is a construct of man, not Christ. He did commission Peter to build a church, but he did not ordain the structure of the Catholic Church which has evolved over time. It is very irksome to hear Catholics tell us we are “Denying the Church Christ built”, just as much as you do not like being told you don’t pray to Jesus.

 

[Cheshangle]

No, of course Christ didn’t found a Church led by the Popes and centered in Rome. Obviously he founded a Church led by … Martin Luther? And centered in … Missouri? And if your church is neither of those things then why is it called the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church?

Excuse me, but your logic fails to impress. Christ established a visible Church with a leadership which is traceable back to His own Apostles, chief of whom was Peter, or He established chaos and confusion. “I follow Calvin” “I follow Wesley” “I follow Luther” - isn’t that the precise thing St Paul condemned in the followers of Apollos?

Well, as an Anglican I don’t “follow” Luther, Wssley or Calvin. I’m a menber of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But I am not “upset” by developments in the Cof E (unless you include the Ordinariate).

 

[hn160]

No, of course Christ didn’t found a Church led by the Popes and centered in Rome. Obviously he founded a Church led by … Martin Luther? And centered in … Missouri? And if your church is neither of those things then why is it called the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church?

Excuse me, but your logic fails to impress. Christ established a visible Church with a leadership which is traceable back to His own Apostles, chief of whom was Peter, or He established chaos and confusion. “I follow Calvin” “I follow Wesley” “I follow Luther” - isn’t that the precise thing St Paul condemned in the followers of Apollos?

You sound bitter. We Lutherans do not follow Luther, we follow Christ, We are just as Catholic as you are, maybe more so. We believe in the three Ecumenical Creeds, Holy Baptism, Holy Trinity and the Real Presence. If the Pope would be just the Bishop of Rome and give up Papal Infallibility, a lot could be worked out.

 

[guanophore]

You sound bitter. We Lutherans do not follow Luther, we follow Christ, We are just as Catholic as you are, maybe more so. We believe in the three Ecumenical Creeds, Holy Baptism, Holy Trinity and the Real Presence. If the Pope would be just the Bishop of Rome and give up Papal Infallibility, a lot could be worked out.

The bishop of Rome has received the Petrine gifts and responsibilities. He is charged with the care and feeding of Jesus’ flock. He cannot accomplish this goal without the prayer of Christ “I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail” and Jesus’ promises that He will guide the Church into “all Truth”.

As a result of receiving these Apostolic Teachings, the bishop of Rome is not permitted to abandon the will and promises of Christ. Christ desired that His Church be one, and toward that end He entrusted the keys to Peter.

 

[hn160]

The bishop of Rome has received the Petrine gifts and responsibilities. He is charged with the care and feeding of Jesus’ flock. He cannot accomplish this goal without the prayer of Christ “I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail” and Jesus’ promises that He will guide the Church into “all Truth”.

As a result of receiving these Apostolic Teachings, the bishop of Rome is not permitted to abandon the will and promises of Christ. Christ desired that His Church be one, and toward that end He entrusted the keys to Peter.

Then, why aren’t the various Orthodox Churches under the Papacy?

 

[MontChevalier]

Then, why aren’t the various Orthodox Churches under the Papacy?

They take time to convince. Many are mostly afraid, others basically feel there isn’t a need to and some have made arrangements to do so, but have not been able to, for various reasons; their churches are being destroyed, their people are murdered, some are even turning away, etc etc etc.

Unlike the Protestants in the U.S., there are real Christians in the east actually dying for Christ.

-MontChevalier

 

[Cheshangle]

They take time to convince. Many are mostly afraid, others basically feel there isn’t a need to and some have made arrangements to do so, but have not been able to, for various reasons; their churches are being destroyed, their people are murdered, some are even turning away, etc etc etc.

Unlike the Protestants in the U.S., there are real Christians in the east actually dying for Christ.

-MontChevalier

By “real Christians” do you mean RC? I’d got the impression that various Protestant evangelical types were very fervent in their attempts to proselytise, and some died for this.

 

[guanophore]

Then, why aren’t the various Orthodox Churches under the Papacy?

What made you think they weren’t?

Do you think that Peter had no jurisdiction over the disciples in cities he never visited? To whom do you think his letters are written?

Peter was given charge of the whole flock of God. His successors inherited this responsibility, and the gifts that accompany it.

It is not his fault that many of you are rebellious subjects. You are subjects all the same.

 

[guanophore]

By “real Christians” do you mean RC? I’d got the impression that various Protestant evangelical types were very fervent in their attempts to proselytise, and some died for this.

You are right. It is not charitable to insinuate that our separated brethren are not “real Christians”, since the Church recognizes them as such. Many Protestants have, indeed, died for their faith, no few at the hands of Catholics.

 

[MontChevalier]

By “real Christians” do you mean RC? I’d got the impression that various Protestant evangelical types were very fervent in their attempts to proselytise, and some died for this.

I would say more than RC’s, since there are Orthodox Christians there as well. And whether or not some protestants do die for their faith, we simply don’t hear enough of that to actually recognize that it is happening.

-MontChevalier

 

[ETEXAS]

Some have spoken of anti-Catholic Anglicans…I have not really encountered this! I as a convert from the Thames am still friends with my Anglican Priest. Most tend to “lean” more to us than true-blue Fundamentalists!

 

[hn160]

They take time to convince. Many are mostly afraid, others basically feel there isn’t a need to and some have made arrangements to do so, but have not been able to, for various reasons; their churches are being destroyed, their people are murdered, some are even turning away, etc etc etc.

Unlike the Protestants in the U.S., there are real Christians in the east actually dying for Christ.

-MontChevalier

Do you mean Christians like this Iranian?
ran’s Supreme Court says an evangelical pastor charged with apostasy can be executed if he does not recant his faith, according to a copy of the verdict obtained by a religious rights activist group.

Christian Solidarity World says Iranian-born Yousef Nadarkhani, who was arrested in 2009 and given the death sentence late last year, could have his sentence suspended on the grounds that he renounce his faith.

Read more: foxnews.com/world/2011/07/14/evangelical-pastor-in-iran-may-face-death-if-doesnt-recant/#ixzz1S7rZSr3H

 

[ETEXAS]

Do you mean Christians like this Iranian?
ran’s Supreme Court says an evangelical pastor charged with apostasy can be executed if he does not recant his faith, according to a copy of the verdict obtained by a religious rights activist group.

Christian Solidarity World says Iranian-born Yousef Nadarkhani, who was arrested in 2009 and given the death sentence late last year, could have his sentence suspended on the grounds that he renounce his faith.

Read more: foxnews.com/world/2011/07/14/evangelical-pastor-in-iran-may-face-death-if-doesnt-recant/#ixzz1S7rZSr3H

Sad…Iran’s abuses are among the worst regarding Christians.

 

[followingtheway]

My wife told a friend she was in RCIA, her friend responded: “Don’t you know you can Pray to Jesus?”

Hasn’t she ever heard the Fatima Prayer? The Divine Mercy Chaplet? Doesn’t she know we pray the Our Father and the Jesus prayer? And about the Sacred Heart devotions? sigh People these days :dts:

But yeah, I’ve met a couple of those.

 

[Christalone]

They are specially fueled by the Father of Lies.

No more so than catholics talking about non catholics!

 

[ETEXAS]

Hasn’t she ever heard the Fatima Prayer? The Divine Mercy Chaplet? Doesn’t she know we pray the Our Father and the Jesus prayer? And about the Sacred Heart devotions? sigh People these days :dts:

But yeah, I’ve met a couple of those.

LOL…yep…it is why I called it “Well meaning Prots” these are not foaming at the mouth…reading Chick and Alamo Press types! LOL… Really they are not HATE folk…really they … Do Not Know!!!