The Wisdom of Personal Attacks on Martin Luther

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What I am saying is that Luther and his fellow reformers started the whole mess.
In a vacuum, and are completely at fault?
I am also saying that modern day Protestants cannot agree among themselves on how to resolve their own differences.
Why should they? There is no “Protestant” religion. That’s like saying to a Lutheran, a Catholic and an Orthodox, “You Christians can’t agree amongst yourselves!” or to a Hindu, a Muslim and a Catholic, “You religious folks can’t even agree amongst yourselves!” The “Protestant” grouping is an entirely arbitrary, useless umbrella term.
I am also saying that Catholics are not sowing division.
Never?
Catholics are simply pointing out the divisions among non-Catholics which were started by the **legendary **Martin Luther and his merry band of “protesters”.
The key here is that word, legendary. No Lutheran elevates Luther the man to such a level as some Catholics seem to. Luther was a man. One single man. Are you really making the argument that one, single, outspoken man was somehow able to overcome all the ecclesial powers (not to mention the incredible temporal powers and armies!) of Rome? Really? It seems to me that it’s not Lutherans who have turned history into a legend.
 
Oh, and by the way, “Exsurge Domine”, Leo X’s Bull against Luther and his errors, is still on the books. An expiration date was never stamped on it.

What errors did the Church make in handling him?
Except maybe in his religious order in the beginning but that is not errors of teaching. The usual mythology surrounding him is that he was just a simple monk, minding his own business but objected to corruption in the Church and set about trying to reform it. Martin Luther was not a simple man and started to take direct aim at a number of things as unbiblical. The five Solas which Bible alone is the most famous were the teachings he refused to denounce and his defiance resulted in his ex-communication. Maybe if one want to quibble about handling but claiming that he was necessary is again buying into his mythology.
 
In a vacuum, and are completely at fault?
I think the Catechism, which you qouted if i’m not mistaken, acknowledges that men on both sides of the issue were at fault.
No Lutheran elevates Luther the man to such a level as some Catholics seem to.
You have got to see the irony in this statement… 🤷
 
What I am saying is that Luther and his fellow reformers started the whole mess.
The reformers didn’t start anything really. They planted new theology, but they were also used by the States. We can go back to the French Crown in ~1309 and how the Avignon controversy started to see that the conflict of Church and State was already going south. The reformers presented the States the best opportunity to part ways with the Church.

The reformers left one “institution” for another “institution”. They were used by the States. That doesn’t make them less culpable just as it doesn’t make us less culpable. The “because I say so” line stopped working with different “authorities” now in place. The reformers became regional denominations, for the most part.
 
I think the Catechism, which you qouted if i’m not mistaken, acknowledges that men on both sides of the issue were at fault.
Precisely.
You have got to see the irony in this statement… 🤷
Hey, it’s the name y’all gave us. We’re just running with it. I prefer “Evangelical Catholic,” as do many other “Catholics of the Augsburg Confession.”

The whole name thing is one of my pet peeves. “Evangelical Catholic” would be most accurate, in my opinion, but when we call ourselves that, Catholics in communion with Rome get peeved at us because it’s too similar. But if we use the word Rome made for us with the intention of tying us to a certain German, then we’re accused of following Luther. Fanged if we do, danged if we don’t. 🤷
 
What I am saying is that Luther and his fellow reformers started the whole mess.
Hi Tomster. I hate to say, but I don’t think you thought this through properly. (I note your profile says Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic, so I’m guessing you have friends or fellow parishioners you can fill you in on the relevant history.)
 
Referring to ‘A Concise History of the Catholic Church’, T. Bokkenkotter, ‘The Catholic Church’s history from the very beginning has been punctuated with terrible crises: the persecutions by the Roman Empire, the rise of Arianism, the barbarian invasions, the struggle over lay investiture, the Schism of the East, the Great Schism. But it would hardly be an exaggeration to say that Luther’s revolt was the most devastating of them all. Never before was there so widespread and sudden a desertion of its altars, and never before had so many priests and nuns abandoned their cloisters, almost overnight. When it was all over, half of Europe was lost to the Roman obedience, and the unity of Christendom was but a fading memory’.

I believe the great loss within the unity of Christianity is the loss of the sacred, the loss of heaven on earth – the Mass.

Protestant Sunday services, more so outside Lutheranism and Anglicanism, is so extremely different than universal Christianity – the Latin and Orthodox form of worship, and the profound and personal contemplation of the Lord when communing Him.

Also reflecting the profound crisis within the Church, it took 28 years after Luther’s split to pull itself together which eventually brought about the Council of Trent – this reforming Council to take 18 years to accomplish with a 10 year interlude.

Regarding Luther’s stand on justification, ‘Trent refused any compromise. The bishops denied man’s total corruption by original sin and asserted our justification was not actualized by faith alone but also by hope and charity as well. Moreover, charity had to be expressed in good works carried out by the co-operation of the human’s will with God’s grace.’

‘Scripture and Tradition were declared both necessary in determining the faith of the Church…the dogmas of the divine validity of the seven sacraments, the hierarchical nature of the Church, the divine institution of the priesthood, the traditional teaching on transubstantiation, and the sacrificial character of the Mass’.

As Catholic, we do not follow single charismatic leaders, but rather in the Tradition of faith, that which is passed down to us by the apostles.

And the years approaching the Reformation, there were already movements within Germany and elsewhere that sought deeper spirituality, secular priests working among the laity by living out the beatitudes and corporal works of mercy.
 
Hey, it’s the name y’all gave us. We’re just running with it. I prefer “Evangelical Catholic,” as do many other “Catholics of the Augsburg Confession.”

The whole name thing is one of my pet peeves. “Evangelical Catholic” would be most accurate, in my opinion, but when we call ourselves that, Catholics in communion with Rome get peeved at us because it’s too similar. But if we use the word Rome made for us with the intention of tying us to a certain German, then we’re accused of following Luther. Fanged if we do, danged if we don’t. 🤷
I know, I think I’ve heard you express this before… 😃
 
Oh, and by the way, “Exsurge Domine”, Leo X’s Bull against Luther and his errors, is still on the books. An expiration date was never stamped on it.

What errors did the Church make in handling him?
What is a quick summary of Leo X’s Bull?
 
I’m sorry I did not get involved in this thread much sooner. Now it has grown like Topsy and I can’t keep up.
 
I’m sorry I did not get involved in this thread much sooner. Now it has grown like Topsy and I can’t keep up.
It’s okay, Andrew. It’s dull western theology anyway. (I say that seriously btw).
 
was that suppose to be funny?
Yes, hence the big toothed smiley 👍 I enjoy our Lutheran members here. They are usually quite light hearted.

And let’s face it… Papal Bull is just askin’ for it;)
 
Referring to ‘A Concise History of the Catholic Church’, T. Bokkenkotter, ‘The Catholic Church’s history from the very beginning has been punctuated with terrible crises: the persecutions by the Roman Empire, the rise of Arianism, the barbarian invasions, the struggle over lay investiture, the Schism of the East, the Great Schism. But it would hardly be an exaggeration to say that Luther’s revolt was the most devastating of them all. Never before was there so widespread and sudden a desertion of its altars, and never before had so many priests and nuns abandoned their cloisters, almost overnight. When it was all over, half of Europe was lost to the Roman obedience, and the unity of Christendom was but a fading memory’.

I believe the great loss within the unity of Christianity is the loss of the sacred, the loss of heaven on earth – the Mass.

Protestant Sunday services, more so outside Lutheranism and Anglicanism, is so extremely different than universal Christianity – the Latin and Orthodox form of worship, and the profound and personal contemplation of the Lord when communing Him.

Also reflecting the profound crisis within the Church, it took 28 years after Luther’s split to pull itself together which eventually brought about the Council of Trent – this reforming Council to take 18 years to accomplish with a 10 year interlude.

Regarding Luther’s stand on justification, ‘Trent refused any compromise. The bishops denied man’s total corruption by original sin and asserted our justification was not actualized by faith alone but also by hope and charity as well. Moreover, charity had to be expressed in good works carried out by the co-operation of the human’s will with God’s grace.’

‘Scripture and Tradition were declared both necessary in determining the faith of the Church…the dogmas of the divine validity of the seven sacraments, the hierarchical nature of the Church, the divine institution of the priesthood, the traditional teaching on transubstantiation, and the sacrificial character of the Mass’.

As Catholic, we do not follow single charismatic leaders, but rather in the Tradition of faith, that which is passed down to us by the apostles.

And the years approaching the Reformation, there were already movements within Germany and elsewhere that sought deeper spirituality, secular priests working among the laity by living out the beatitudes and corporal works of mercy.
Hi Kathleen Gee: Nice post. makes a lot of sense. One of the things that gets me is that there was a lot of propaganda by Luther in promoting his teachings, theologies, and doctrines and used degrading language against those who opposed him. When one starts to read Luther’s writings, especially the pamphlets he wrote and had published in the thousands, is it any wonder that he was able to turn so many against the CC?
 
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