The Witness: I know you (John 5:31-42)

[simplynoone]

when asked how Christians know that Jesus is God, there are three answers that are given. And yet, all three of these answers fail as being a valid witness for what/who Christians claim Jesus was in a test given by Jesus his ownself (John 5:31-38). Let’s look closer at what Christian’s claim to be valid reasoning for believing their claims about Jesus being God and compare them to what Jesus said.

Christian answer #1: Jesus himself claimed to be God in many places.

Me: Okay, first of all, most of these places that are listed are so vague as to be considered non existent for what you are claiming. Still, even if Jesus himself had said he was God, he negated it being a valid claim in John 5:31. It says that if he bears witness of himself, his witness is not true.

That’s a VERY tough corner he put Christians in. How do you suppose to back out of it to keep your faith that Jesus is God now?

Christian answer #2: Others called him Lord, Master, and even doubting (ahem) Thomas called him God.

Me: Jesus now, with his words, is going to push you even harder into the corner as he negates your faith being valid if you use the above. John 5:34. So, no more being able to say that Thomas or anyone else calling him God is proof that he was God.

2 down, one more to go.

Christians answer #3: All the prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to him as God being on earth.

Me: In verse 32, Jesus is clear that the Father (God) alone can bear witness of the mission of Jesus. But, one must know the Father (God) FIRST to know the testimony of Jesus. In verse 39, Jesus points to the Scriptures (ONLY the Tanakh since the NT did not exist at that time), not because they were magically predicting Jesus, but (and a VERY important but at that) because through them you would find the Way that we can know God.

Then, when you know the way of God and are walking in it via understanding, you KNOW who Jesus was because you too will have the Light of God in you (Isaiah 8:20).

So, the true witness of Jesus is only known HAVING the Word in you as Jesus did. Then, who has the Word of God? Isaiah 9:8 … the Jewish People. Jesus confirms this in John 4:22.

Now, I can confidently say to the Christians what it is Jesus said in John 5:42, thus serving as a faithful and true witness as well.

I KNOW YOU, THAT YE HAVE NOT THE LOVE OF GOD IN YOU.

That is because I know the Word and the way of God to know that Jesus was a Jewish teacher who was zealous for the Law of God and the People in whom the testimony had been established (Psalm 78:5), and he was not God.

Idolatry is what happens when we define God as a man Hosea 11:9. I am a witness to the Christian’s idolatry. You err for not knowing the Scriptures.

 

[mcrisp411]

**Exodus 3:14 (New International Version)

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ " God Declared that he is “I AM”. **

**Luke 22:70 (New International Version)

70They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
He replied, “You are right in saying I am.”**

I believe this same I am is used in essence of the I AM that God told moses in the burning bush. I think that is pretty clear.

Some rabbinical teaching is used to describe who he is.

Matthew 12
Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3He answered, "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." **

This is pretty clear in saying that he is Lord of the Sabbath but if you look at the fact that the story he is refering to he is saying that he is the king and that the pharisees are the spies sent by saul and that the disciples are the new priests.

Matthew 12:39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Kind of off topic but Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days and nights…but also the ninavites(sorry for poor spelling) were given 40 days to repent. If you notice that 40 years after Jesus rose from the dead that the temple was distroyed.

Some old testament writtings that are pretty explicitly relating to Jesus as the Christ are these.

**Psalm 22:16 (New International Version)

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [a] my hands and my feet.**
**
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning**

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
-Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
**
Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.**

Believing that Jesus is God is not Idoltary. God has no limits. One scripture I know seems to show that there may be more than one person of one God and that is this

Genesis 11:7 (New International Version)
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

Besides God having more than one personal characteristic is not incondusive with the fact that He is one. Just like a box has three dimentions Hight, width, and depth each nessacery for the box to exist.
Also if you write yourself into a play the person you write is you just if God wrote himself into the play of the world.

These analogies are not the greatest but they help.

Even if you are not a christian how would you say your relationship with God is? Do you internalize the commandments given moses on the mountain?

Oh Oh one more thing.
**Daniel 9:24 (New International Version)

24 "Seventy ‘sevens’ [a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish ** transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy****

That is 490 years. That is about when Jesus started. Also to note israel was to be in exile for 70 years…well they did come together but they were still in exile because of forgivness. Jesus said that we should forgive our brother 70 * 7. (Matthew 18:22)

Also about cain and lamech it says Genesis 4:24
If Cain is avenged seven times, then Lamech seventy-seven times. Notice it still has to do with forgiveness or unforgiveness.

Thats all for now.

Thanks for reading,

Matthew**

 

[simplynoone]

Exodus 3:14 (New International Version)

**14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ " God Declared that he is “I AM”. **

Luke 22:70 (New International Version)

**70They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” **
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

I believe this same I am is used in essence of the I AM that God told moses in the burning bush. I think that is pretty clear.

Sorry, you seemed to have missed that I already adressed this with Jesus’ own words in the #1 example. Thus, this is not a valid witness.

Some rabbinical teaching is used to describe who he is.

Matthew 12
**Lord of the Sabbath **
**1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” **
3He answered, "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." ****

**This is pretty clear in saying that he is Lord of the Sabbath but if you look at the fact that the story he is refering to he is saying that he is the king and that the pharisees are the spies sent by saul and that the disciples are the new priests. **

Matthew 12:39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

**Kind of off topic but Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days and nights…but also the ninavites(sorry for poor spelling) were given 40 days to repent. If you notice that 40 years after Jesus rose from the dead that the temple was distroyed. **

Some old testament writtings that are pretty explicitly relating to Jesus as the Christ are these.

Christ, meaning the annointed, is Israel, of which Jesus was ONE of the annointed. If you need me to point you to the references in the Tanakh to show you that israel was the annointed of God, then just let me know. I would hate to embarrass you by automatically assuming that you don’t know what the Tanakh says.

---

Psalm 22

---

Again, I would not like to assume wrong that you don’t see within the same context of the Tanakh, who it is Psalm 22 applies to. If you don’t know the words in the Tanakh, though, just let me know and I will help you out here too.

This is why I say … Christians err for not knowing the Scriptures Jesus referred us to … which was the Tanakh since the NT did not exist at the time.

 

[Hunho]

Idolatry is what happens when we define God as a man Hosea 11:9. I am a witness to the Christian’s idolatry. You err for not knowing the Scriptures.

Simplynoone, I think that Hosea 9:11, indeed the whole of Hosea’s ninth chapter, is a punishment on both Israel and Ephraim for having forsaken God in favor of Baal. By doing that they are worshiping idols, but nothing in that chapter seems to have anything to do with defining God as a man.

 

[Hunho]

Actually, none of your “Christian answers” fit my personal experience of becoming Christian. What I remember bringing me to request baptism as a Christian was an overall experience of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the conviction that the apostles showed in the Book of Acts. C.S. Lewis, in his book Mere Christianity, describes the process I went through in a much clearer way than I could have at the time (or, for that matter,than I can even now). According to Lewis:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic–on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg–or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
(C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (Book II, chapter 3; pp. 55-56) )

 

[imkingdad]

Sorry, you seemed to have missed that I already adressed this with Jesus’ own words in the #1 example. Thus, this is not a valid witness.

Christ, meaning the annointed, is Israel, of which Jesus was ONE of the annointed. If you need me to point you to the references in the Tanakh to show you that israel was the annointed of God, then just let me know. I would hate to embarrass you by automatically assuming that you don’t know what the Tanakh says.

---

Again, I would not like to assume wrong that you don’t see within the same context of the Tanakh, who it is Psalm 22 applies to. If you don’t know the words in the Tanakh, though, just let me know and I will help you out here too. **

This is why I say … Christians err for not knowing the Scriptures Jesus referred us to … which was the Tanakh since the NT did not exist at the time.

So you get to Interpret the scripture & its application as it best suits you & those that differ are somehow ignorant?? Private Interpretation has been Frowned on for centuries . By Jew, Muslim & Christian. But you know Best. Because you say so
Hmmmmmmm! I think I’ll Pass!! Pride & Arrogance go before the Fall. watch your footing & where you step… Too busy looking up & right off the cliff you’ll walk.

good luck with that pov. you’ll be needing it…**

 

[mcrisp411]

*Christian answer #1: *

   **This is True. Maybe God is not so explicit because His self Solo testamony is not valid. So He is saying that others testify for Him or on His behalf. He says the Father testifies for him (37). He says his works testify that the Father sent him (36)
   And what testamony is He is talking about? If you look at some of the previous Verses like 18 it says ...but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Then in Verse 19 He is replying by saying that His testamony is that He is God. Or maybe He is saying that if He ONLY testified about Himself it would be invalid but that there is more than one that will testify to what He is saying. **

*Christian answer #2: *

  ** I to be honest don't know what He means in verse 34. He says He doesen't recieve man's testamony, so that you may be saved? So Jesus doesn't recieve mans testamony. Why does it save us? This one I do not know the answer to**

  *Christians answer #3*

  **My first question is did they us the Tanakh in the NT era? I was under the impression it was the Septuagent beacuse many jews spoke greek and arimaic and not hebrew at the time. 
   It does not say the the Father ALONE can bear witness as He continues to show. 
   I don't see it saying that we must know the Father first. It says in Verse 38 it says you do not have His word living in you because you do not belive in the One he sent (that I believe, the one He sent is Jesus.)What does believing in Jesus mean. Just to believe that He is a good teacher? A profit? Is He saying you do not have the word in you because you do not believe in His word?
  If you look at verse 39 He says you pour over the scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about me (Jesus). 
  (40) And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. This last bit kind of sounds like you. Jesus is the word Incarnet. No one Gets to the Father except through him.  John 4:23  worship in spirit and truth. John 14:6 I am the way, the Truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.You are to worship in Spirit Becuase God is Spirit and in Truth Because God is truth and Jesus just said that He is Truth.

   Salvation comes from the Jews because Jesus was a Jew and no one can be saved except through Him. God has been prepairing for that very moment for a long time. His covenant relationship with the people have been getting bigger and bigger since the fall of man. First Adam, then Noah, Then Abraham, then David and now Jesus. It went from Man, to Family, To a Nation,  to kingdom, and now the world or eternal Kingdom. 

    As the prophet Daniel showed in his dream. Daniel 2:31-45. The last kingdom was Rome. It was divided and the stone that broke off was Jesus who established his kingdom and it is spread throughout the world. We Christians are apart of this kingdom which nation will not destroy, the one that will last forever. 
   We overcame the Romans. God has established this kingdom and not the gates of Hell will prevail against it. 
   I know you may know more than me. I know I am not perfect. This is how I see it. I can understand how you see the scriptures because how both of us look at them is based on our beliefs. I don't think anyone can go through a logical argument and prove how one person is right or wrong by using scriptures alone. 
  Alot of people make alot of fuss over a email there friend wrote and then make up because they found out that they misinterpereted. How much more the bible? Have your beliefs always been the same? Im going to guess not. You may have had one theological theory and then later moved to a diffrent one. I have been this way. I am just now converting to Catholocism. This is why, because we believe we have been given authority by God to interperate scriptures because of Jesus. We have the bible, the traditions, and the magisterium. With these three we are in unity as God is in unity.

I do not believe that Jesus being God is in anyway Idol worship. God is one. He has three persons. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This is similar to our created nature. Are not families an eternal and not a created thing? God is and was and always shall be a family in Himself. It is why love and covenant is so important to Him. Isn’t a covenant a way of bringing us into a family that is more than biological or contractual?

If my beliefs are wrong then I believe that God will have compassion and understanding in the fact that I am seeking and searching for him, but if I am right my heart pains that you may understand like I do so that you may be with our one true love forever, which is, our Lord God.

**

 

[Hisalone]

when asked how Christians know that Jesus is God, there are three answers that are given. And yet, all three of these answers fail as being a valid witness for what/who Christians claim Jesus was in a test given by Jesus his ownself (John 5:31-38). Let’s look closer at what Christian’s claim to be valid reasoning for believing their claims about Jesus being God and compare them to what Jesus said.

Christian answer #1: Jesus himself claimed to be God in many places.

Me: Okay, first of all, most of these places that are listed are so vague as to be considered non existent for what you are claiming. Still, even if Jesus himself had said he was God, he negated it being a valid claim in John 5:31. It says that if he bears witness of himself, his witness is not true.

That’s a VERY tough corner he put Christians in. How do you suppose to back out of it to keep your faith that Jesus is God now?

Christian answer #2: Others called him Lord, Master, and even doubting (ahem) Thomas called him God.

Me: Jesus now, with his words, is going to push you even harder into the corner as he negates your faith being valid if you use the above. John 5:34. So, no more being able to say that Thomas or anyone else calling him God is proof that he was God.

2 down, one more to go.

Christians answer #3: All the prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to him as God being on earth.

Me: In verse 32, Jesus is clear that the Father (God) alone can bear witness of the mission of Jesus. But, one must know the Father (God) FIRST to know the testimony of Jesus. In verse 39, Jesus points to the Scriptures (ONLY the Tanakh since the NT did not exist at that time), not because they were magically predicting Jesus, but (and a VERY important but at that) because through them you would find the Way that we can know God.

Then, when you know the way of God and are walking in it via understanding, you KNOW who Jesus was because you too will have the Light of God in you (Isaiah 8:20).

So, the true witness of Jesus is only known HAVING the Word in you as Jesus did. Then, who has the Word of God? Isaiah 9:8 … the Jewish People. Jesus confirms this in John 4:22.

Now, I can confidently say to the Christians what it is Jesus said in John 5:42, thus serving as a faithful and true witness as well.

I KNOW YOU, THAT YE HAVE NOT THE LOVE OF GOD IN YOU.

That is because I know the Word and the way of God to know that Jesus was a Jewish teacher who was zealous for the Law of God and the People in whom the testimony had been established (Psalm 78:5), and he was not God.

Idolatry is what happens when we define God as a man Hosea 11:9. I am a witness to the Christian’s idolatry. You err for not knowing the Scriptures.

You can not pick and choose which scripture you use and which you throw out. All of Gods word is truth. Jesus in John 5 was saying that there was other witnesses to Him other than Himself. Who were they.
The word of God----no the word of God is not the Jewish people.
John the Baptist ----Do a word study of Lord in Isaiah 40
The Holy Ghost----- The Holy ghost is the Spirit of God it is Gods Spirit His very presence that annoints a person. If one is anointed then the Spirit of God rests on that person. Gods Spirit rested on Isreal before Jesus after Jesus Gods Spirit rests on the believers of Jesus.
God Himself provided the sacrifice and only He Himself could be the perfect sacrifice that was required.

 

[ryanoneil]

first of all, most of these places that are listed are so vague as to be considered non existent for what you are claiming. Still, even if Jesus himself had said he was God, he negated it being a valid claim in John 5:31. It says that if he bears witness of himself, his witness is not true.

That’s a VERY tough corner he put Christians in. How do you suppose to back out of it to keep your faith that Jesus is God now?

There is no reason to back out of anything. Read all of chapter 5 for the answer, without avoiding verse 18.

For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.

Jewish legal tradition required two or three witnesses to sustain a claim in court.

"One witness alone shall not take the stand against a man in regard to any crime or any offense of which he may be guilty; a judicial fact shall be established only on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (Deut 19:15)

Jesus says that his testimony in not enough according to the law, so he gives a list of witnesses beyond the required number.

1. John the Baptist (5:33)
2. His own miracles (5:36)
3. The Father (5:37)
4. The Scriptures (5:39)
5. Moses (5:46)

All of them bear witness to his divine authority and mission.

 

[Hunho]

**Simplynoone, in order to respond to your op’s charge I need for you to answer several questions to clarify exactly what arguments you will accept and which ones you will dismiss out of hand or call too mystic. The points I need you to clarify are these:

1. What is man’s soul?
2. Is there anything more to man than his body?
3. What is man’s relationship to God now (Genesis 3 and after) compared to what it was in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 1-2?
4. Why is redemption necessary and what does it do? (Specifics please)
5. When did public revelation cease? (I.e., God’s revelations to His people as a whole)
6. What is sin? What effect does sin have on the relationship between God and men/a man?
7. What exactly do you mean when you call something “mystical”?

I eagerly await your response.
**