the woman and the dragon

[stmax]

i feel like the woman and the dragon story from revelation is interpretable in different ways. can anyone explain what the church believes about it. i am inclined to believe that the woman in the story is mary… but there are some parts that don’t really pertain to her like the earth helping the woman out. i also have heard that the woman is israel, but i have never heard of isreal being refered to as the mother of christ. it just doesn’t make sense. I guess my question is, WHO IS THE WOMAN?

 

[stmax]

i feel like the woman and the dragon story from revelation is interpretable in different ways. can anyone explain what the church believes about it. i am inclined to believe that the woman in the story is mary… but there are some parts that don’t really pertain to her like the earth helping the woman out. i also have heard that the woman is israel, but i have never heard of isreal being refered to as the mother of christ. it just doesn’t make sense. I guess my question is, WHO IS THE WOMAN?

 

[Gusto]

Here is an extract from John Martignoni’s e newsletter #127

In Revelation chapter 12 we see “the woman” (verse 4), the “male child” who is to “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (verse 5) and “that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan” (verse 9).

To recall, Genesis 3:15 had “the woman,” the “seed,” or child, of the woman, and “the serpent,” Satan. In Genesis 3:15, God puts enmity between the woman and Satan.

In Revelation 12, we see that Satan pursues the woman (verse 13) but, because of a special grace from God (verse 14), he never catches her. This caused Satan to be angry with the woman (there’s that “enmity” thing) and to go off and make war on the rest of her offspring – those who “keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

The parallels between Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12 are pretty hard to miss. The woman, the “seed” or chi ld of the woman, and Satan in both passages. The promise of Satan’s eventual defeat in Gen 3:15 and the realization of that promise in Rev 12.

And, as God put enmity between the woman and Satan in Gen 3:15, we see that Satan never catches the woman in Revelation 12, and is very angry with her.

Now, some will say that the woman represents the Church, because it is the Church that brings Jesus to the world; or that she represents Israel, because Jesus is a child of Israel. And, at one level of interpretation, they would be right. The image of the woman can be a metaphor for either the Church or Israel. There are many passages of Scripture that can have different levels of meaning, and this is one of them. However, at the most basic level of meaning, the woman is also a real person – Mary, the mother of Jesus. After all, no one ever says that the male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron is a m etaphor. Nor do they say that the ancient serpent, Satan, is a metaphor. Why then do they claim “the woman” is only a metaphor? They claim that because they do not want her to be Mary. To admit that could damage some of their arguments against Catholic teaching on Mary.

So, in the parallel passage of Gen 3:15, we see three real persons, but in chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation, we supposedly only have two real persons and a metaphor?

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[roads152]

Scholars agree that verse one, chapter twelve of the book of Revelation referred to Mary, the Mother of the Savior.
I,personally, agree with them because I believe that it may not be wrong to think that the verse is referring to Mary, especially, because she is the Mother of the Church. It is true in the sense that Christ had given Mary to the care of the apostle John who was then representing you, him/her and me, that is, all of us.
The Mary that was being referred to in this verse was the Mary after the Crucifixion, not the Mary who was with Joseph in Bethlehem and looking for a place to stay overnight. Let us be clear on this. The Mary whom the verse is referring to is the Mary, Mother of Christ after the words: “Woman, this is your son.” (Jerusalem Bible John 19:26d) and “This is your mother.”(Jerusalem Bible John 19:27b) have been said by the crucified Lord Savior.
This verse, in short, referred to Mary, the Mother of the Church though she was also Mary who in her younger days gave birth to the Savior in Bethlehem.

 

[midori]

Well, if you ask Mary of Agreda, it’s definitely Mary. If you’re familiar with the Our Lady of Guadelupe imagery, it comes from Rev 12, which is what you’re referring to.

Mary of Agreda has a lot to say about it. But skimming through parts of it, the basic concept was that after the Fall, Satan asks God for permission to tempt both Jesus and his mother, because what use is their perfection if they’ve never been exposed to temptation? God grants that permission with the caveat that he’s not permitted to bodily harm them.

So when it talks about “wings”:
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
it’s referring to two special graces which God gave her to prepare her for her spiritual combat: an “infused science” (an understanding of the vast mysteries of God) and “a new and sublime humility”. When the eagle soars, it’s alone in its flight— and MofA explained that the same was true with Mary; that she lived in seclusion from all earthly things. And the references to time all refer to various periods in her life, since her temptations/spiritual battles were not at a consistent level throughout her lifetime, but during the times of her fiercest battles, her spiritual nourishment was at its greatest level.

The next verse goes:
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

according to MofA, “the river” is a reference to the fact that just as a river current is forceful (ever seen a river in flood?), so was the force of the devil’s malice, temptation, etc, as he pitched his battle against her. When it talks about the earth helping her, it’s a reference to Adam and Eve. Remember how Adam was formed from the dirt? After the Fall, God cursed them— but the punishment of God never touched Mary because she had been preserved by his special grace. So basically “the earth” (her purity) swallowed the stream of temptations that had been set for her, and because she never gave in to the inclinations or evil that we ourselves have a habit of embracing.

That’s the really, really short of it. You might try reading some of her writing if you really want to get into a lot of the symbolism in Revelation.

 

[YourAverageJoe]

Here is an extract from John Martignoni’s e newsletter #127

In Revelation chapter 12 we see “the woman” (verse 4), the “male child” who is to “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (verse 5) and “that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan” (verse 9).

To recall, Genesis 3:15 had “the woman,” the “seed,” or child, of the woman, and “the serpent,” Satan. In Genesis 3:15, God puts enmity between the woman and Satan.

In Revelation 12, we see that Satan pursues the woman (verse 13) but, because of a special grace from God (verse 14), he never catches her. This caused Satan to be angry with the woman (there’s that “enmity” thing) and to go off and make war on the rest of her offspring – those who “keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

The parallels between Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12 are pretty hard to miss. The woman, the “seed” or chi ld of the woman, and Satan in both passages. The promise of Satan’s eventual defeat in Gen 3:15 and the realization of that promise in Rev 12.

And, as God put enmity between the woman and Satan in Gen 3:15, we see that Satan never catches the woman in Revelation 12, and is very angry with her.

Now, some will say that the woman represents the Church, because it is the Church that brings Jesus to the world; or that she represents Israel, because Jesus is a child of Israel. And, at one level of interpretation, they would be right. The image of the woman can be a metaphor for either the Church or Israel. There are many passages of Scripture that can have different levels of meaning, and this is one of them. However, at the most basic level of meaning, the woman is also a real person – Mary, the mother of Jesus. After all, no one ever says that the male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron is a m etaphor. Nor do they say that the ancient serpent, Satan, is a metaphor. Why then do they claim “the woman” is only a metaphor? They claim that because they do not want her to be Mary. To admit that could damage some of their arguments against Catholic teaching on Mary.

So, in the parallel passage of Gen 3:15, we see three real persons, but in chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation, we supposedly only have two real persons and a metaphor?

You may want to sign up to these newsletters.
If so, go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and click on the “Newsletter” page to sign up. It will take you about 10 seconds.

Rev12:4
…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
Mat 2:13
… “Rise, take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you. Herod is going to search for the child to destroy him.”

Rev 12:6
The woman herself fled into the** desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days**
Mat 2:13
When they had departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt (a desert), and stay there until I tell you. “”

Rev 12:14
But the woman was given the **two wings **of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert (Egypt?), where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a **year, two years, and a half-year. **

(two wings are the Angel and Joseph, they kept Mary always away from Herod, the Angel communicated to Joseph thru dreams, and Joseph kept moving)
Rev 12:12 and having been warned in a dream
Rev 12:13 then they had departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child
Rev 12:14 Joseph rose and took the child and his mother by night
Rev12:19-20 When Herod had died, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child’s life are dead
Rev 12:22 But when he heard that Archelaus was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, 11 he was afraid to go back there. And because he had been warned in a dream

 

[doulos33]

In Unveiling the Apocalypse: Prophecy in Catholic Tradition, Emmett O’Regan (the book being discussed over at the “is www 666 in Hebrew” thread) argues that the prophecy of the woman adorned with the sun (otherwise known as the “divine drama” or “war in heaven”) is an apocalyptic retelling of the story of the nativity, and describes eschatological events modelled on this template. The woman fleeing into the desert for 1,260 days to escape the pursuing dragon, recalls the flight of the Holy Family into Egypt to escape from King Herod and his slaugther of the Holy Innocents.
O’Regan links this prophecy (in part at least - there are very many different layers to this prophecy) to the modern apparitions of the Virgin Mary in various locations throughout Egypt associated with the flight of the Holy Family into Egypt, such as those of Our Lady of Zeitoun in 1968 (which is one of the few Marian apparitions officially recognized by the Catholic Church) and the more recent apparitions of Our Lady of Assuit in 2000 and in Warraq, Cairo 2009 they appeared above a Church dedicated to Our Lady and the Archangel Michael. (You can find video footage of this phenomena on Youtube). These are the most widely witnessed Marian apparitions in history, and unlike Fatima the actual apparition was able to be witnessed by everyone present, which has been literally thousands upon thousands of people. Although they have not been accompanied by any messages, O’Regan believes
that the locations and timing of the apparitions are the message in itself. He notes that the apparitions first began to appear in 1968 during the same month that the UK became the first country in the world to legalise abortion when the Abortion Act came into effect. O’Regan believes that the timing of the appearances of Our Lady of Zeitoun were a warning that a new “slaughter of the innocents” had been instigated by the Dragon.

 

[ryanoneil]

A common interpretation is that the woman starts off representing Mary. But later, the child being caught up to God describes Christ’s Ascension and enthronement next to the Father. Then the woman fleeing into the wilderness represents the Church fleeing Jerusalem before its destruction. 1,260 days would be the time Rome was at war with Jerusalem (Feb of 67 to Aug of 70 A.D.).