The word "Mormon" is a turn off.

[Paul_G]

I wasn’t the one who called you hypocritical and hope you did not interpret something I posted as such. But you did not address my post where Joseph Smith boasted his accomplishments above Jesus Christ. That appears to be an avoidance of discussing the subject, which seems to be looking the other way as opposed to addressing it.

It cannot be shown that Joseph Smith declared himself greater that our Lord, and the Saviour clearly suggested that greater works than his was a possibility. So it appears to me that your beef with Joseph Smith on this issue is that he said it.

Paul

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It cannot be shown that Joseph Smith declared himself greater that our Lord, and the Saviour clearly suggested that greater works than his was a possibility. So it appears to me that your beef with Joseph Smith on this issue is that he said it.

Paul

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam… Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” History of The Church 6:408–409

Mormons have a way of discounting anything written about Joseph Smith that insinuates some of Joseph’s ‘problems’. Take the the Young Woman’s Journal for example, where Joseph Smith talked about ‘men’ on the moon or Professor Anthon’s refutation of reformed Egyptian. Those writings are quickly discounted and Joseph Smith’s side is put above the rest. Professor Anthon had nothing to gain one way or another, yet Mormons quickly call his statements false?

Anthon believed “reformed Egyptian” to be a hoax:[13]

The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be “reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me… Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax …On hearing this odd story, I changed my opinion about the paper, and, instead of viewing it any longer as a hoax upon the learned, I began to regard it as part of a scheme to cheat the farmer of his money, and I communicated my suspicions to him, warning him to beware of rogues. He requested an opinion from me in writing, which of course I declined giving, and he then took his leave carrying the paper with him. This paper was in fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular columns and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calendar given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it was derived… the paper contained any thing else but “Egyptian Hieroglyphics.”[14]

I can easily use Mormons sources like the Doctrine’s and Covenants, Book of Mormon or the Journal of Discourses to show some very questionable statements by Joseph Smith and other leaders of the Mormon theology, if you’d like to really dig into the ‘meat’ of things so readers here can decide the truth for themselves. Surely you wouldn’t question statements of Joseph Smith in the Doctrines and Covenants? If you wish to discuss these issues, let me know and I’ll post arguments one at a time, there are way too many to discuss all at once and I wouldn’t want to overwhelm anyone.

 

[Paul_G]

Mormons have a way of discounting anything written about Joseph Smith that insinuates some of Joseph’s ‘problems’. Take the the Young Woman’s Journal for example, where Joseph Smith talked about ‘men’ on the moon or Professor Anthon’s refutation of reformed Egyptian. Those writings are quickly discounted and Joseph Smith’s side is put above the rest. Professor Anthon had nothing to gain one way or another, yet Mormons quickly call his statements false?

I can easily use Mormons sources like the Doctrine’s and Covenants, Book of Mormon or the Journal of Discourses to show some very questionable statements by Joseph Smith and other leaders of the Mormon theology, if you’d like to really dig into the ‘meat’ of things so readers here can decide the truth for themselves. Surely you wouldn’t question statements of Joseph Smith in the Doctrines and Covenants? If you wish to discuss these issues, let me know and I’ll post arguments one at a time, there are way too many to discuss all at once and I wouldn’t want to overwhelm anyone.

Very welI, take it then you have nothing more to add pertaining to your above snippet and the Saviours teaching saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father (John 14: 12)

Paul

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Very welI, take it then you have nothing more to add pertaining to your above snippet and the Saviours teaching saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father (John 14: 12)

Paul

I couldn’t help but notice you did not address that the boastful quote was taken from the History of The Church (6:408–409). Isn’t that a Mormon document about the Mormon Church history?

There is a sermon by Joseph Smith entitled “King Follett Sermon” being discussed on another thread. I’d be interested in seeing your take on that. Personally I was shocked at what Joseph Smith said in that sermon.

I’m sorry I’m not getting your point with the ‘single’ verse you’ve quoted. We may have interpretational difference here. It might be that you pulled one verse out to make a point, but one verse makes the story out of context. What does what he was telling His Apostles have to do with it?

**Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God: believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I shall go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself: that where I am, you also may be.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go you know: and the way you know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest. And how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father; and it is enough for us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou: Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
Joh 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do.
Joh 14:13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.
Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Joh 14:17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you shall know that I am in my Father: and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you: my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, do I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled: nor let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.
Joh 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world: cometh: and in me he hath not any thing.
Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father: and as the Father hath given me commandments, so do I. Arise, let us go hence. **

I could easily pull one verse out as underlined above to counter your ‘point’, but then that would be out of context.

With that little demonstration behind me, I’d be very interested in seeing your personal interpretation of the one verse you provided and how it applies.

 

[Paul_G]

I couldn’t help but notice you did not address that the boastful quote was taken from the History of The Church (6:408–409). Isn’t that a Mormon document about the Mormon Church history?

Why should I have, you appear to have it marked clearly enough.

There is a sermon by Joseph Smith entitled “King Follett Sermon” being discussed on another thread. I’d be interested in seeing your take on that. Personally I was shocked at what Joseph Smith said in that sermon.

One verse is enough. I think it is clear, He is stating His authority and relationship with the Father, and that His leaving them is not a bad thing that they would continue the work, and in doing so, would do “greater” (referring to the works) than he did. So what do you think he meant by “greater”. I believe this teaching does fit the context of the issue surrounding your initial remark

I’m sorry I’m not getting your point with the ‘single’ verse you’ve quoted. We may have interpretational difference here. It might be that you pulled one verse out to make a point, but one verse makes the story out of context. What does what he was telling His Apostles have to do with it?

I agree, and it would support our view of our relationship with the Holy Ghost, which as you point is indeed out of context with the subject at hand

**Joh 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do.

Joh 14:17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you**.
(scriptures cut for post space limit)
I could easily pull one verse out as underlined above to counter your ‘point’, but then that would be out of context.
I agree, and it would support our view of our relationship with the Holy Ghost, which as you point is indeed out of context with the subject at hand

With that little demonstration behind me, I’d be very interested in seeing your personal interpretation of the one verse you provided and how it applies.

In your initial remark you chafed at one statement, because of the method used to compile this History of the Church, we are not altogether sure that this is an accurate quote by Joseph Smith, but let’s say it is. In the absence of further enlightenment of your position on this issue, I take your reasoning to suggest that Joseph Smith was saying he did a greater work than Jesus (perhaps meaning better than Jesus). Considering the entire text and the circumstance of the time, he seems to be saying only that he was able to keep the Church together better than others did, including Jesus Christ. As I quoted the Lord said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father” (John 14:12).

To what greater work could the Saviour be referring? Perhaps the Lord means a larger work, but certainly not more significant. For example, John the Baptist presumably baptized more people than Jesus, Paul may have converted more as a missionary, Moses led more Israelites out of bondage, Noah built a bigger ship, and Joseph Smith kept a Church together longer than those he cited. The point should be clear: if greater means quantity, there are many who fulfilled the Saviour’s promise that his followers would do “greater works,” and this, In my opinion, includes Joseph Smith.

Paul

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

To what greater work could the Saviour be referring? Perhaps the Lord means a larger work, but certainly not more significant. For example, John the Baptist presumably baptized more people than Jesus, Paul may have converted more as a missionary, Moses led more Israelites out of bondage, Noah built a bigger ship, and Joseph Smith kept a Church together longer than those he cited. The point should be clear: if greater means quantity, there are many who fulfilled the Saviour’s promise that his followers would do “greater works,” and this, In my opinion, includes Joseph Smith.

Paul

You really need to reconsider using private interpretations.

Jesus was not talking about the boat building of Noah or the life of Moses from the Old Testament, nor John the Baptist who said he wasn’t worthy to tie Christ’s sandals. Paul may have converted more? Surely you jest! No one is converted except through the Lord.

The verse you keep posting is the Lord speaking to His Apostles. He was not speaking about a false prophet from the 1800s. Joseph Smith’s words are clear, he boasted he had accomplished things that even Jesus had not, and 30 days later he died with a gun in his hand. That’s not exactly being martyred. In fact in the words of a Mormon, it is believed Joseph Smith killed two men that day.

John Taylor, who became the third President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:

“Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, ‘Would any of you like to have this?’ Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,’ whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket… I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs… (Hyrum was shot in the face and was killed instantly, John Taylor continued)
I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)"

When Christ was arrested, Peter drew his sword and the cut the ear off one of the guards that had come to arrest Jesus.

Mat 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Jesus gave his life for all, according to the will of the Father, asking the Father to forgive those who persecuted him.

Luk 23:34 And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

Joseph Smith died in a gunfight.

There is no comparison.

How can we tell a false prophet? Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.

**Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.

Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him. **

According to the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5, Joseph Smith prophesied a temple, to be known as the city of the New Jerusalem, would be built in the Western boundaries of the state of Missouri. I have bolded parts of this passage, below, for emphasis.

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

That temple has not been built to this day, 160+ years later. That generation is long been buried. Besides, how is the temple to be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith? The LDS doesn’t even own the lot. The Church of Christ (Temple Lot) owns it and calls LDS and RDLS apostates from the restoration Gospel.

The topic of this thread is the word Mormon is a turn off. Want to talk about the temple ceremony, a real turn off?

 

[notsmart]

What is the meaning of the word “Mormon”? I really find it to be a wierd word.

Why on earth would anyone find fault with a word?

If you were born in China, would the word catholic sound normal to you or “weird” to you?

I am all for debate of issues, but this is so trivial knit picking!

I thought they were the latter day saints of Jesus Christ, but everyone calls them mormon, so do they themselves.

What is the point here?

If they called themselves non catholics, would that be better?

Who cares? I bet they don’t!

 

[Jerusha]

I prefer to use the word “Brighamite” for TBM’s. It makes the point very specific. If it offends them, then they need to take a look at why they have those feelings.

 

[Paul_G]

Why on earth would anyone find fault with a word?

If you were born in China, would the word catholic sound normal to you or “weird” to you?

I am all for debate of issues, but this is so trivial knit picking!

I thought they were the latter day saints of Jesus Christ, but everyone calls them mormon, so do they themselves.

What is the point here?

If they called themselves non catholics, would that be better?

Who cares? I bet they don’t!

I haven’t commented on the name thing as it, as you point out, trivial. I see it as a way uniformed people can cast aspersions a something they might not know anything about. Something like the post ww2 rejoinder, “Oh ya, well your mother wears army boots”. Call me a Mormon, LDS, and if Jerusha is reading this, why not a Monsonite, it’s a little more up to date. So call me anything you want but late for dinner.

Paul

 

[CentralFLJames]

I haven’t commented on the name thing as it, as you point out, trivial. I see it as a way uniformed people can cast aspersions a something they might not know anything about. Something like the post ww2 rejoinder, “Oh ya, well your mother wears army boots”. Call me a Mormon, LDS, and if Jerusha is reading this, why not a Monsonite, it’s a little more up to date. So call me anything you want but late for dinner.

Paul

St. Paul tells us a name to call those that teach a different gospel that I don’t think any Mormons would want to hear - accursed. But since the so called “angel Moroni” delivered quite a different message than what Jesus and the Apostles delivered it seems to me Mormons need to answer to a higher authority than just Joseph Smith or Moroni.

Perversion of the Gospel

Galatians 1:6-10
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 **But even if we, or an angel from heaven [ed. Moroni?] , should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! **9As we have said before, so **I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! **10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Seems to me Mormons are following a different gospel delivered and taught through the so called Angel Moroni to please the man who self appointed himself as “prophet” - Joseph Smith. This scripture above is a direct warning about that.

Is there any wonder that most Christians are completely “turned off” by the name “Mormon” or Brigham Young or Latter Day Saints or anything linked by name association to Joseph Smith?

On top of that if anyone reads the comical and checkered history of Joseph Smith (laughable run for presidency, multiple bad debts and bankruptcies, Mormon wars, being tarred & feathered, illegally shut down the press as mayor etc. etc.) it sounds like the man was center stage of a complete circus act.

Take heed to what the Apostles have warned about men like Joseph Smith and so called angels like Moroni.

James

 

[Paul_G]

St. Paul tells us a name to call those that teach a different gospel that I don’t think any Mormons would want to hear - accursed. But since the so called “angel Moroni” delivered quite a different message than what Jesus and the Apostles delivered it seems to me Mormons need to answer to a higher authority than just Joseph Smith or Moroni.

Perversion of the Gospel

Galatians 1:6-10
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven [ed. Moroni?] , should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Seems to me Mormons are following a different gospel delivered and taught through the so called Angel Moroni to please the man who self appointed himself as “prophet” - Joseph Smith. This scripture above is a direct warning about that.

Is there any wonder that most Christians are completely “turned off” by the name “Mormon” or Brigham Young or Latter Day Saints or anything linked by name association to Joseph Smith?

On top of that if anyone reads the comical and checkered history of Joseph Smith (laughable run for presidency, multiple bad debts and bankruptcies, Mormon wars, being tarred & feathered, illegally shut down the press as mayor etc. etc.) it sounds like the man was center stage of a complete circus act.

Take heed to what the Apostles have warned about men like Joseph Smith and so called angels like Moroni.

James

Could you tell us what Moroni communicated to Joseph Smith that is different, as you say, from the message of our Saviour.

Paul

 

[Jerusha]

Call me a Mormon, LDS, and if Jerusha is reading this, why not a Monsonite, it’s a little more up to date. So call me anything you want but late for dinner.

Paul

If Monson can lead your church into the 21st century and modify doctrines, etc, into something more tolerable to Catholics and women and people of color, I would be glad to compliment your people by calling them Monsonites. I wouldn’t gamble on it, though.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Could you tell us what Moroni communicated to Joseph Smith that is different, as you say, from the message of our Saviour.

Paul

How about the entire book of Mormon containing the NT being a fradulent copy of the KJV - complete with the same textual errors.

Cut me a break.

James

 

[Paul_G]

How about the entire book of Mormon containing the NT being a fradulent copy of the KJV - complete with the same textual errors.

Cut me a break.

James

If we are talking about Moroni, he did not convey any information contained in the book of Mormon he as a messenger, which angles are, pointed out to Joseph Smith where the gold plates were to be found. The translation itself is another question.

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

If we are talking about Moroni, he did not convey any information contained in the book of Mormon

Not true.

scriptures.lds.org/morm/8

 

[Paul_G]

If Monson can lead your church into the 21st century and modify doctrines, etc, into something more tolerable to Catholics and women and people of color, I would be glad to compliment your people by calling them Monsonites. I wouldn’t gamble on it, though.

I’m not a gambling person I don’t know about Catholics, but the LDS church is a great place for women with families, or anyone else who is looking for a spiritual home to learn and practice the Christian way of life as taught by the saviour. Of course we have things that are culturally different from the norm (no drinking, coffee or tea) and an initiated only worship in our temples, and that is not everyone’s cup of tea, so to speak, those that join and don’t like leave, but many stay because in the confusion of the greater North American culture they find it a haven not the “satins seat” as many try to portray our faith. If you want to go back in the past to prove your point for the present, I think all congregations of the faithful have behaved in ways that would not be expectable at present don’t you think.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Not true.

scriptures.lds.org/morm/8

Could you point out where Moroni the angel delivered any message that contradicted any of the Apostles or Jesus. It is true he made the abridgement of other plates and added some comments of his own, but that is not what the context of our comments here are focused on.

Paul

 

[why_me]

Joseph Smith gave a speech in May 1844, Smith proclaimed this:

Seems Joseph Smith said some pretty bad things himself, putting himself above Jesus Christ. I’ve never seen the Holy Father say anything near this.

Again, I have to read this quotation without the context. JS was giving a sermon on Corinthians where Paul is also engaged in boasting. The sermon was basically based on that chapter in Corinthians. Have a nice day!

 

[why_me]

I wasn’t the one who called you hypocritical and hope you did not interpret something I posted as such. But you did not address my post where Joseph Smith boasted his accomplishments above Jesus Christ. That appears to be an avoidance of discussing the subject, which seems to be looking the other way as opposed to addressing it.

I have given you the context. JS was basing his sermon on Paul in Corinthians and how Paul was boasting. True, JS went overboard, but hey who doesn’t from time to time.

 

[why_me]

Mormons have embraced the word mormon because it the name is based on a book that they believe is a second witness of Jesus Christ. However, officially, the term for lds members is: **Latter Day Saints. **