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AMDGtoo
Guest
As someone who has seen (first hand) the LDS behavior with my convert to the LDS daughter, I can assure you that you are very mistaken.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This so called “angel of light” did the same thing Satan did in the garden. Satan, as already damned, did not of course eat the forbidden fruit himself - he just “enlightened” (sound familiar? Angel of Light) Eve on how to become just like God. Is it any wonder that the revelation of so called golden plates by Moroni do are inticements to produce the same EXACT crime to grasp at divinity? Mormons teach that God used to be human and became divine through self actualtization. The old apple in the garden trick if ever I heard it.
You Mormons reject the trinity. You reject Christ as divine. You constantly revoke and amend your Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) and contramind the copied and stolen Christian scriptures contained in the Book of Mormon.
The biblical OT proof of a false prophet is revealed by a single false prophecy. And Joseph Smith has proven himself to be false dozens of times. Here is a short list of a just a few changes to D&C that contradict every bit of scripture in BOM.
- Abridgment of D&C 137 to remove an entire paragraph that had four obviously false prophecies censored out.
- D&C Section 132 Verse 54 in regards to polagamy. Smith threatened Emma Smith with destruction if she doesn’t let Joseph have all of his wives without complaint and acknowledge the divine origins of plural marriage. Emma outlived her murdered husband and proved his prophecy wrong.
- Joseph Smith Prophesied Second Coming of Jesus in 40 years. Its been a century since Smith has been dead in the grave and no 2nd coming.
- The Potsherd Prophecy. Do you know who Oliver Granger is? Most Mormons don’t either. As a friend and supporter of Smith he was supposed to remain in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever.
- Joseph Smith as A Second Mohammad. Did you know he alikened himself to Mohammad? It should be no surprise since they he emulated his false prophecies. "I will be to this generation a second Mohammad, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ "
Mormonism - it could only happen in America.
James
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
So in effect you’re saying because he preached a sermon on boasting it was ok for him to boast of his own works, because that’s exactly what he did.Again, I have to read this quotation without the context. JS was giving a sermon on Corinthians where Paul is also engaged in boasting. The sermon was basically based on that chapter in Corinthians. Have a nice day!
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majick275
Guest
Could you point out where Moroni the angel delivered any message that contradicted any of the Apostles or Jesus. It is true he made the abridgement of other plates and added some comments of his own, but that is not what the context of our comments here are focused on.
Paul
moroni 4, 5,6, 8 and 10. those are allegedly his words and they contradict the words of Jesus and his Apostles.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Could you point out where Moroni the angel delivered any message that contradicted any of the Apostles or Jesus. It is true he made the abridgement of other plates and added some comments of his own, but that is not what the context of our comments here are focused on.
Paul
duck n’ dodge
seriously, doesn’t it tire you out?
Paul
duck n’ dodge
seriously, doesn’t it tire you out?
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PaulDupre
Guest
The difference is that Paul was boasting in Christ - boasting of how wonderful Christ is. Joseph Smith was boasting about how wonderful Joseph Smith was.So in effect you’re saying because he preached a sermon on boasting it was ok for him to boast of his own works, because that’s exactly what he did.
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Coder
Guest
Hi, I understand and agree.
I invite you to learn about the Church that Jesus formed in Himself. Jesus gave us His Body and His Church carries on His command to “Do this in memory of Me.” Since then there have been many with new ideas but these ideas are seen as error when they depart from the Church and the mission and command of Jesus given to His Church.
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Paul_G
Guest
I’m not sure what you are saying here, but I glean that there was some experience that was not positive. Without trying to pry was this an incident involving a local group or individual, or was it more of a systemic issue.
Paul
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Paul_G
Guest
duck n’ dodge
seriously, doesn’t it tire you out?
The original poster said that Moroni “the angel” taught things to Joseph Smith that are different than the teachings of the apostles. You add your two word reply with a link attached which does not communicate anything. I asked for clarification or information to support your comment. How is that ducking or dodging? Yes, I seriously get tired of comments that are meant as darts rather that serious conversation. My question stands, “Could you point out where Moroni “the angel” delivered any message that contradicted any of the Apostles”. I will be happy to hear your point of view and discuss it with you.
Paul
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Paul_G
Guest
moroni 4, 5,6, 8 and 10. those are allegedly his words and they contradict the words of Jesus and his Apostles.
Same reply as Post 49
Paul
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majick275
Guest
Same reply as Post 49
Paul
how does that post mean anything? i told you the specific chapters in the LDS scriptures attributed to moroni. surely you are familiar with those chapters. that’s where the BoM all of the sudden in a few soundbites attempts to tell you the answers to the most common religious controversies of the day. from a catholic POV it is particularly significant that he denounces infant baptism as a wicked act, denies the real presence in the eucharist and changes the words of consecration.
if you want to stick with what moroni supposedly said directly to JS then i would claim all of it is contradictory to the words of Christ and the apostles since it’s all about JS being called to “restore” a gospel that the bible tells us would never be lost.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
let’s review
Code:
*If we are talking about Moroni, he did not convey any information contained in the book of Mormon**Rather than responding to my calling you on your lie, you instead ask me where that chapter contradicts the Apostles or Jesus. Which, has nothing to do with your original reply of Moroni not conveying information.
Angel or no, is it not to you the same person?
*You are ducking and dodging the conveying of misinformation.
But to satisfy your question:
“38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.”
**
The Priesthood has been revealed.***
Jesus Himself says this is so:
Matthew 26
*63 But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him in reply, "You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’"a clear reference to Psalm 110, which expresses the tradition of the king-priest
1 A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” 2 The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies! 3 Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” 4 The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” 5 At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of wrath, 6 Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, 7 Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head.(What are the sacrifices that a Mormon high priest makes?)
The full manifestation of this truth is related in the Letter to the Hebrews.
“We read of Christ who “being made perfect, became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek” (Heb 5:9-10). Then, after recalling what was said about Melchizedek in the Book of Genesis (cf. Gen 14:18), the Letter to the Hebrews continues: “His name when translated means king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever” (Heb 7:2-3). Using the analogies of the ritual of worship, of the ark and of the sacrifices of the old covenant, the author of the Letter to the Hebrews presents Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of all the figures and promises of the Old Testament, ordained “to serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary” (Heb 8:5). Christ, however, a merciful and faithful high priest (cf. Heb 2:17; 3:2-5), bears in himself a “priesthood that continues for ever” (Heb 7:24), having offered “himself without blemish to God” (Heb 9:14).
It is worthwhile quoting completely some particularly eloquent passages of this letter. Coming into the world, Jesus Christ says to God his Father: “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me. In burnt offerings and sin offerings you take no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God’” (Heb 10:5-7). “For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest” (Heb 7:26). “Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people” (Heb 2:17). We have then, “a high priest…who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning,” a high priest who is able “to sympathize with our weaknesses” (cf. Heb 4:15).
Further on we read that such a high priest “has no need, like the other high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself” (Heb 7:27). Again, “when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come…he entered once for all into the Holy Place…taking his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption” (Heb 9:11-12). Hence our certainty that “the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, will purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God” (Heb 9:14).
This explains why an everlasting saving power is attributed to Christ’s priesthood whereby “he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25).” (Jesus Christ, Messiah Priest)
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Paul_G
Guest
I understand your line of reasoning, but I think it is a stretch to apply the analogy of satin and Eve to the Angel Moroni’s message. There certainly is not an “if you do this your will like God” statement by Moroni. Joseph Smith relates, “
"…He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;…” (JSH 33,34)
You may disagree with that information, but the similarity to your analogy is very thin
Paul
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Paul_G
Guest
Thank your this is so much better, however you still dodge the Angel Moroni issue by appealing to the Book of Mormon to support your position (apples and oranges), and yes there is a difference between our role here on earth and the role we will play in heaven in the service of God
I agree with you that Jesus is our high priest who has fulfilled the law so that there will be no other high priest that will offer up sacrifices to God for sins. This does not negate the necessity for a priesthood, Jesus that his future disciples would be a royal priesthood. There was to be and is a priesthood on the earth which has authority God to conduct His work and will on earth.
Paul
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Paul_G
Guest
how does that post mean anything? i told you the specific chapters in the LDS scriptures attributed to moroni. surely you are familiar with those chapters. that’s where the BoM all of the sudden in a few soundbites attempts to tell you the answers to the most common religious controversies of the day. from a catholic POV it is particularly significant that he denounces infant baptism as a wicked act, denies the real presence in the eucharist and changes the words of consecration.
if you want to stick with what moroni supposedly said directly to JS then i would claim all of it is contradictory to the words of Christ and the apostles since it’s all about JS being called to “restore” a gospel that the bible tells us would never be lost.
Like Rebecca you are appealing to the Book of Mormon to support your points. You are making a wider argument than fits the issue in the original conversation. Yes there I am sure that there are points that are different from the Catholic traditions you have mentioned to be found in the Book of Mormon but they do not in my opinion contradict in any great way from the central teachings and message of the apostles or Jesus.
Paul
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Paul - you need to wake up. If you can’t see Satan’s signature in the following Moroni-Smith dialog then you are in grave danger. Smith through the imagined or demonic manifestation of Moroni makes himself into the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil for heavens sake! This man through complicity with a demon makes himself the deliverer of the Forbidden Fruit to mankind to replay the same old “you can be just like God if you do what I tell you” message that Adam and Eve fell for.
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
Come on Paul, WAKE UP! Moroni makes Joseph Smith, by NAME a new incarnation of the forbidden fruit! Look at the words staring you right in the face.
He called me by** name**, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
James
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why_me
Guest
Just as Paul did in 2 Corinthians chapter 11. He was certainly boasting in that chapter and he recognized it himself. JS was only boasting as Paul did. Of course, it was a sermon and JS did say a lot more in that sermon. It can be found in The Teachings of JS or The Words of JS published by Dessert Books, the mormon publisher.So in effect you’re saying because he preached a sermon on boasting it was ok for him to boast of his own works, because that’s exactly what he did.
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why_me
Guest
Not quite! Look in verses 16-33 in 2 corinthians chapter 11:
16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
It seems that Paul was boasting of his ordeals but not in Christ. JS was only giving a sermon on that chapter and made a different kind of boast.
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why_me
Guest
It seems you lost the argument. I gave the context of JS’s speech, something critics do not feel compelled to do because they wish to mislead people.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Role playing?
Did I say there is not a priesthood?
I gave you what JS said came from Moroni, in the form of an angel, which was re: a high priest.
Which didn’t need to be “restored” as Christ fulfilled the prophesy of the OT. Not an angel.
Your priesthood tangent is just you, and a false belief that God’s Church, the Catholic Church, has no priesthood authority.
Your church has a false priesthood, that is arrogant enough to postulate was needed because Christ, our high priest, the fulfillment of the OT prophecy that your moroni is expounding, didn’t happen!
nonsense.
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