The word "woman" used in scripture

[anrmenchaca47]

OK,

So I’m debating a guy on youtube regarding their claims that the Catholic Church is replacing Christ with Mary. So for was have been at it for quite some time. Anyway, I was trying to allude to the fact that Mary is indeed Immaculate and that God can keep her from the stain of sin. He, on the other hand refuses to that she is sinless and keeps throwing that quote from Romans saying that “No One” is without sin. I even used references from Gen 3:15 and John 2:4 when it comes to the word “woman” and how the it is used in reference to Mary. Well he throws me a curve ball by saying that at Jesus ressurection he addressess Mary Magdalene in the same manner. All I said is that there is a BIG differnce between Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Christ. Can someone help me out with this one.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ask him to explain the Greek word Kecharitomone, (The angel’s greeting to Mary in Luke’s Gospel - Hail, highly favored one), which implies that Mary’s Grace has always been on her, not just “from here on out”.

Note: And don’t let him confuse you with the similar greek word that Luke uses to describe Steven being “filled with the Holy Spirit” in Acts 6 (or 7). It lacks the always-present emphasis that Gabriel uses when he calls Mary Kecharitomone.

2nd Note: You can do a quick search on this site for the word “Kecharitomone” to get a more complete explanation behind the words.

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus does indeed call Mary Magdalene “Woman” in John, chapter 20. But then He does something that He never does to His mother in John’s Gospel. He calls Mary Magdalene by name - *Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni,” which means Teacher. *

 

[Spencerian]

OK,

So I’m debating a guy on youtube regarding their claims that the Catholic Church is replacing Christ with Mary. So for was have been at it for quite some time. Anyway, I was trying to allude to the fact that Mary is indeed Immaculate and that God can keep her from the stain of sin. He, on the other hand refuses to that she is sinless and keeps throwing that quote from Romans saying that “No One” is without sin. I even used references from Gen 3:15 and John 2:4 when it comes to the word “woman” and how the it is used in reference to Mary. Well he throws me a curve ball by saying that at Jesus ressurection he addressess Mary Magdalene in the same manner. All I said is that there is a BIG differnce between Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Christ. Can someone help me out with this one.

Hi. Let me suggest some answers in bullets and let you do the job of presentation.

**1) The debater is confusing the meaning of prayer and veneration to saints with worship and adoration to God alone, a common Protestant issue. Numerous passages in Scripture (particularly from St. Paul in Romans 8:35-39, Luke 15:7,10 and many others) demonstrate that prayer (which simply means, “to tell”) connects all in the Body of Christ, the mystical union of all souls in Heaven with those on Earth. No creature, not even Mary, is being prayed to ask her to do something on her own power. They have no power other than the holiness given to them from the Lord, and that is primarily to “put in a good word” to the Lord, which sees to the needs of those who pray. You can also pray directly to God, but Scripture encourages us all to pray for each other, even when in Heaven.

**2) Mary was chosen by God to be the bearer of His Son. This was not merely a matter of putting the seed in Mary and being done with it. It would be inappropriate for the Son to be bore in an unclean vessel. **In a special grace, God made Mary without sin. Your friend does not understand that St. Paul’s words in Romans 3:10 are hyperbole to express a point. Of course, there were *four *people who were sinless, at one time or another that existed on Earth. Adam and Eve were the first, but fell. Mary and her Son are the new Adam and Eve that set right the scales. In answer to an expected follow up, of course Mary required a savior, too. No one goes to Heaven except through the Son’s Passion, sinless or not. This is evident in teachings of Christ entering the realm of the pious dead (“Abraham’s Bosom,” as expressed in Luke 16:19) to preach to these souls who awaited the opening of Heaven by His Passion. Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant carried the Word Incarnate, just as incorruptible wood and gold was used to form the First Ark, which carried the Word of the Ten Commandments.

3) On the use of “woman,” ask your friend if Christ is sinless. If he says, “Of course,” then ask him why a sinless Jewish man would disrespect his mother by talking down to her by calling her “woman” in the modern meaning, breaking the 5th Commandment? The answer is, of course, that Christ would never do such a thing. The term “woman” is a word of honor here, so cultural context is important. Here is a quote from a CAF answer that sums Christ’s and Mary’s interaction at the wedding of Cana, particularly the second part of His answer:

In the first place Jesus is using a Jewish expression as he speaks to his mother. The English translation we use at Mass renders it rather poorly. The Greek text of the Jewish expression is τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί (ti emoi kai soi) which is literally rendered: “What to me and to thee?” What this expression does it to denote a relationship between the one who is asking and the one who is asked. In effect it is something that someone says when they are reluctant to do what the asker wants but, based on their respect for the one who asks, they agree to do it. Maybe the closest English expression is, “What is that between friends?” or “You don’t even have to ask!”

So in this interaction between Jesus and Mary we DO note some reluctance on Jesus’ part for his hour had not yet come. And yet, because it is his mother who asks he does it. After stating his reluctance he says,“But what is that between you and me?” Mary clearly takes it as an affirmation not a rebuke for she never misses a beat and turns right to the steward and says, “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5).

And Christ uses “woman” in the same honorific to other women as well, including Mary Magdalene. It’s a cultural gesture of respect and not in the modern, sarcastic form.

 

[anrmenchaca47]

But then He does something that He never does to His mother in John’s Gospel.

What did he do because I just looked it up on Chapter 20 and I didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

 

[NotWorthy]

What did he do because I just looked it up on Chapter 20 and I didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

I thought I mentioned it… He calls Mary Magdalene by name. Hence, you can’t say that Jesus is placing Mary (His Mother) and Mary (Magdalene) on the same level by calling both of them “woman”, because he follows it up with calling Mary Magdalene by her first name.

Nowhere in John’s Gospel is Mary (Jesus’ mother) named, not even by the Apostle John.

 

[MorningStar1]

Could God incarnate be contained in a body that was not sinless?

 

[anrmenchaca47]

I thought I mentioned it… He calls Mary Magdalene by name. Hence, you can’t say that Jesus is placing Mary (His Mother) and Mary (Magdalene) on the same level by calling both of them “woman”, because he follows it up with calling Mary Magdalene by her first name.

Nowhere in John’s Gospel is Mary (Jesus’ mother) named, not even by the Apostle John.

I’m really sorry…I had an airhead moment, not to mention I was already on my way out of work went I sent that to you. Only when I was on the road praying the rosary did I click and realize what I had done. My bad…

 

[anrmenchaca47]

Hi. Let me suggest some answers in bullets and let you do the job of presentation.

**1) The debater is confusing the meaning of *prayer ***and veneration to saints with worship and adoration to God alone, a common Protestant issue. Numerous passages in Scripture (particularly from St. Paul in Romans 8:35-39, Luke 15:7,10 and many others) demonstrate that prayer (which simply means, “to tell”) connects all in the Body of Christ, the mystical union of all souls in Heaven with those on Earth. No creature, not even Mary, is being prayed to ask her to do something on her own power. They have no power other than the holiness given to them from the Lord, and that is primarily to “put in a good word” to the Lord, which sees to the needs of those who pray. You can also pray directly to God, but Scripture encourages us all to pray for each other, even when in Heaven.

**2) Mary was chosen by God to be the bearer of His Son. This was not merely a matter of putting the seed in Mary and being done with it. It would be inappropriate for the Son to be bore in an unclean vessel. **In a special grace, God made Mary without sin. Your friend does not understand that St. Paul’s words in Romans 3:10 are hyperbole to express a point. Of course, there were *four *people who were sinless, at one time or another that existed on Earth. Adam and Eve were the first, but fell. Mary and her Son are the new Adam and Eve that set right the scales. In answer to an expected follow up, of course Mary required a savior, too. No one goes to Heaven except through the Son’s Passion, sinless or not. This is evident in teachings of Christ entering the realm of the pious dead (“Abraham’s Bosom,” as expressed in Luke 16:19) to preach to these souls who awaited the opening of Heaven by His Passion. Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant carried the Word Incarnate, just as incorruptible wood and gold was used to form the First Ark, which carried the Word of the Ten Commandments.

3) On the use of “woman,” ask your friend if Christ is sinless. If he says, “Of course,” then ask him why a sinless Jewish man would disrespect his mother by talking down to her by calling her “woman” in the modern meaning, breaking the 5th Commandment? The answer is, of course, that Christ would never do such a thing. The term “woman” is a word of honor here, so cultural context is important. Here is a quote from a CAF answer that sums Christ’s and Mary’s interaction at the wedding of Cana, particularly the second part of His answer:

And Christ uses “woman” in the same honorific to other women as well, including Mary Magdalene. It’s a cultural gesture of respect and not in the modern, sarcastic form.

As for the first two, I explained it to him, although not as detailed as yours but I mentioned it… as for the the third one, he says **"Women in that time were not allowed to testify in court they were commonly addressed as “woman”.

Mary Magdaline was referred to as “Woman” after the resurrection of Christ.

They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” JOHN 20:13

The more you interpret the bible to say things it doesn’t say the less meaning it has."**

But then I answered **"Ok first off there’s a big difference between Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Christ.

As far as me interpreting the bible, everything that I have been telling are beliefs that have been held during the first three centuries until it been declared official by the Magesterium. I am not interpreting the bible. The Church has already done that for me."**

But not to blab away, your third point is really good. I’ll need to bring that one up next time. Thanks