The Worship of Saints?

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In the book of revelation John in chapter 21 worshiped the Angel that show him the city the new Jerusalem but the Angel said not to do so? So I no john was not worshiping the angel as a God but honoring the presence of the holy angel… We as catholic worship (Honor) the saints but do they want that or should we do so?
 
We do not worship saints.
We only worship God.
I understand that we don’t “pray to” saints
I understand that we ask saints for intercessory prayers
I understand that God answers the prayers, not the saints

To be honest, I DON’T understand why we kneel before statues of Mary/saints
 
Also, I read somewhere that we DO pray to saints. There are 4 types of prayer: adoration, thanksgiving, petition, and contrition. Adoration, thanksgiving, and petition are reserved for God alone. Petition isn’t reserved to God alone, but to the whole Church, just like petitioning a friend to pray for you.
 
In the book of revelation John in chapter 21 worshiped the Angel that show him the city the new Jerusalem but the Angel said not to do so? So I no john was not worshiping the angel as a God but honoring the presence of the holy angel… We as catholic worship (Honor) the saints but do they want that or should we do so?
John was prevented from worshipping the angel. Therefore it is instruction to us not to worship angels or statues of Saints. There is a big difference between honouring someone and worshipping them. In modern times things are culturally different, but throughout history it has always been appropriate to bow down in honour and reverence toward the King, princes and lords. This is what happened in ancient Israel also. In fact King David threw himself on the ground and prostated himself with his face in the dust before King Saul.

Yet the saints are princes in heaven, and Mary is the Queen in heaven. What is greater? The one who rules in heaven or the one who rules on earth. Therefore it is appropriate to give obeisance to princes and dignitaries of all kinds, particularly those who are in heaven.

You should not think, as you have indicated in your post, that honour of saints, and worship of God are the same thing. They are quite different.
Unfortunately the reformation and the iconoclasm of the protestants has destroyed in our western culture the awareness of reverance towards authority, and the sacredness of holy things like the saints. Modern culture exalts the individual who with great pride boast, “I will bow down to no man”. In a culture such as this we have lost the nuance between reverance for sacred and holy things and the worship and adoration of God. That’s sad and as Catholics we should resist this modern culture and strive to relearn this nuance by making an effort to give due reverence to holy statues which depict the saints in heaven, and all other holy things such as the vessels, altar and sanctuary etc. which are in our churches.
 
We don’t worship saints, including the Blessed Mother. Worship is reserved for God alone.

We honor the saints. Statues, icons, art work, etc. all serve to remind us of those who have gone before us. This is exactly what is done in the U.S. House of Representatives. Outside the House chamber is an area called Statuary Hall. There are statues of people in American history plus two statues from every state. Quite the tribute to those pioneers who explored, discovered and established this country.

We can never know what is in the heart of one who is kneeling in prayer. If one were to assume someone kneeling in front of a statue was worshiping that statue or the person it represents, then could it also be said someone kneeling in the privacy of their bedroom is worshiping the bed? Truth be told, there are probably some people kneeling in front of Mary that are worshiping her, which is wrong. Period. They need to be catechized.

We can “pray” to saints. The caveat is knowing what is meant by the word “pray”. In old English, the word pray was simply a plea. For example, “I pray thee tell me what one is thinking.” This is how it is used in Catholic circles. Many non-Catholics consider “pray” equal to “worship”. In that case, we do NOT pray to saints. We simply ask them, as fellow members of the body of Christ, to pray for us. This is exactly like we do when we ask those here on earth to pray for us.
 
In … We as catholic worship (Honor) the saints but do they want that or should we do so?
speak for yourself
no, we as Catholics do not worship saints, we honor the saints, and worship does not have the same meaning as honor so maybe you better clean up your typing.
 
This is exactly what is done in the U.S. House of Representatives. Outside the House chamber is an area called Statuary Hall. There are statues of people in American history plus two statues from every state. Quite the tribute to those pioneers who explored, discovered and established this country.
This is what is so ironic (or hypocritical)! Statues have been in the Capitol since it’s been built. Most of the politicians in U.S. history have been Protestant! Yet, we (Catholics) are the ones getting attacked for looking at statues to remind us of those significant people.
 
We can “pray” to saints. The caveat is knowing what is meant by the word “pray”. In old English, the word pray was simply a plea. For example, “I pray thee tell me what one is thinking.” This is how it is used in Catholic circles. Many non-Catholics consider “pray” equal to “worship”. In that case, we do NOT pray to saints. We simply ask them, as fellow members of the body of Christ, to pray for us. This is exactly like we do when we ask those here on earth to pray for us.
This is an extremely important point.

At it’s most basic level, the doctrine of the Communion of Saints acknowledges that all who have been baptized into the Body of Christ from the start of time to the present moment are members of one body, Christ’s body.

As fellow members of Christ’s Body here on earth, we have an obligation to pray for each other and to support each other mutually. That primary mechanism for support and prayer is the family and then the individual parish which is pastored by one or more priests. So we pray for each other and for ourselves, interceeding with God on behalf of each other regularly. But nownhere in the Bible, or anywherer else in Christianity for that matter, does it say that the spirits of those who have died are not able to percieve what is happening on earth or that they are unable to pray for us. Anyone who says so has simply made that up. In fact, since a person who has died and whose spirit is in Heaven beholds the face of God directly, they are in a better position to pray to God on my behalf than anyone on earth including myself.

*…for we do not know how to pray as we ought… (Romans 8:26) *

The Bible is full of spirits who are keenly aware of and interested in what is going on down here and who bring our prayers before God.

*I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. … I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord." Stricken with fear, the two men fell to the ground. (Tobit 12:12-16)

In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents. (Luke 15:10)

I have not time to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, did what was righteous, obtained the promises; they closed the mouths of lions, put out raging fires, escaped the devouring sword; … Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. (Hebrews 11:32-12:2)

When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. (Revelation 5:8)

Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. (Revelation 8:3:4)*

So the spirit world and the created world do communicate. Angels and the spirits of the dead are aware of what happens and bring our prayers before God. It is right to ask the intercession of the Saints because they know what we go through, having gone through it themselves, and they have persevered so they know exactly what we need and can ask God for it on our behalf.

The Saints are an exremely powerful source of strength and help. I think Catholics have gotten away from using them. I pray for the intercession of the strong male saints of history, Joseph, Augustine, Bennedict, Francis, Ignatius, Josemaria and John Paul II, every day.

-Tim-
 
In the book of revelation John in chapter 21 worshiped the Angel that show him the city the new Jerusalem but the Angel said not to do so? So I no john was not worshiping the angel as a God but honoring the presence of the holy angel… We as catholic worship (Honor) the saints but do they want that or should we do so?
Perhaps see the following verses
With a mix of people/angles and the lord

Num 22:31-32
1sam25:23
2sam 9:6
2 chr20:18
Dan 8:16-17
 
To be honest, I DON’T understand why we kneel before statues of Mary/saints
For the same reason that we remove our hats, put our hands over our hearts, and pledge allegiance to what is basically a red, white, and blue quilt : to show respect for what the symbol represents.
 
This is what is so ironic (or hypocritical)! Statues have been in the Capitol since it’s been built. Most of the politicians in U.S. history have been Protestant! Yet, we (Catholics) are the ones getting attacked for looking at statues to remind us of those significant people.
Honoring someone with a statue for perpetuating territorial disputes, now that’s a-okay. Honoring someone with a statue for defending God, sometimes to the point of giving their lives, that’s idolatry! :rolleyes:
 
I tell you what… I kiss the crucifix on my rosaries every time I pray one. OH MY GOD I WORSHIP PLASTIC AND METAL JEWELRY!! Wait a minute… No I don’t… I use plastic and metal jewelry to remind my about GOD! To help me be like those saints who loved God above ALL ELSE.

I also kissed a picture of me and my girlfriend before I went into work today and asked for my shift to end quickly so we can go hang out… OMG I WORSHIP KODAK PAPER!!! Wait… No I don’t!
 
In no way do Catholics worship anything, or anyone, other than God in hiss three persons, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

ONLY God is to ever be worshiped. You appear to have little understanding of English, if you believe that worship and honor mean essentially the same thing. They do NOT.
 
OH MY GOD I WORSHIP PLASTIC AND METAL JEWELRY!!
Watch the language. I think you breaking the third commandment, or to Protestants fourth, or maybe second, I don’t know, Catholics need to stop changing the 10 commandments around. 😃
 
In the book of revelation John in chapter 21 worshiped the Angel that show him the city the new Jerusalem but the Angel said not to do so? So I no john was not worshiping the angel as a God but honoring the presence of the holy angel… We as catholic worship (Honor) the saints but do they want that or should we do so?
If you’re catholic then you know you don’t worship saints. That whole notion is an anti catholic accusation which comes from outside of catholicism. The Catholic Church never taught you to worship a saint. Nor were you taught by the Catholic Church that giving “honor” to a saint equals worship.

You will hear anti catholics saying that all the time and I could understand a non catholic ignorantly buying into it but catholics know better. You will also hear uptight ex Catholics repeating what they heard anti Catholics say about Catholics. The problem is I’ve also heard folks from the uptight ex Catholic crowd trying to tell me that the Catholic Church never taught them that Christ rose from the dead. Needless to say, it doesn’t take long to figure out they are just glomming onto what they know are lies about the Church in order to justify their departure from it. They need the Church to be evil so they can believe they had a good reason for leaving it.

Catholics know in their own gut/heart that what they do toward God is correctly defined as worship and that what they do toward saints is less than what they do toward God. People could play bickering word games about the best definition of worship or veneration till the cows come home but word games aside, even if a Catholic were to think that the Church makes too much of saints, that Catholic still knows the Church regards saints as infinitely less than God.

If you’re Catholic, you know that too, despite whatever anti Catholic nonsense you might have read or heard.🙂
 
I am concerned that this attitude against the worship due to people is an infection of “Protestantism” into the thinking of Catholics. It is an echoing ramification of “sole fide.” Of course we ask other members of the Church to do things for us. Of course we recognize and honor the worth of other people (and of every thing). This is why the “second greatest commandment” is “like the first.” (Matthew 22:39.)

Charity is the virtue of doing all such things for love of God. However, to pretend that we have an excuse for declining to act or for emasculating the Saints by pretending that they do not act is to substitute “God and me” for the Communion of Saints. It is to deny that the Mystical Body of Christ is Christ and that He acts through His body in the world and beyond it.

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2:15-17.)

The maturity of the Saints’ faith does not make it impotent; their faith does not become dead, it flowers into divine potency. The Saints “shall reign for ever and ever.” (Revelation 22:5.) Only an “anti-Catholic” impulse would want to exclude them from the chain of God’s effectiveness in creation.

Pax Domini semper nobiscum.

JRH
 
There is also an issue of linguistic usage. In the Protestant religion there is no adoration in the Catholic sense of this word. In the English of the Church (in the past) the word “worship” was a general term of honor due to God and to all creatures (people and things). The word “adoration” denoted a form of worship limited to God alone.

In the Protestant religion, sacrifice, that is the Mass, was abandoned. Adoration in the strict, Catholic sense was thus abandoned and the “worship of God” ceased. Because of this refusal to offer sacrifice, the protestants began to merely worship God as any mere creature could be worshiped. Then, as part of the abandonment of authentic love with the abandonment of “works” many protestants began to withdraw the worship due to creatures. Hence, in the Catholic sense of the words, the Protestant religion has abandoned adoration and has contracted and restricted worship to God alone, but not in the way due to Him, but in a way due to creatures. Thus God is dishonored and the Saints and all creatures are despised.

In more technical terms, one might say the Protestant religion lacks all *latria *and offers the *dulia *due to the Saints only to God, thus denying the Communion of Saints (Holy Ones).

Now I acknowledge that American English is dominated by the Protestant sensibilities and this has a great deal to do with the reason people get into this intellectual loop where they repeat formulae like “we don’t worship the saints” etc. However, this is a serious problem for the education of the faithful. The Protestant language is insufficiently nuanced to express the Catholic truth. So, these somewhat laborious discussions must be repeated, making the necessary distinctions and allowing us to come to a common understanding – even if a settled vocabulary is impossible because of the Protestant context in which we speak English.

So: If “worship” means *latria *and “honor” means dulia, then we worship only God and honor God, the Saints, all persons, and all creatures to the degree that each is due honor. If “adoration” means *latria *and “worship” means dulia, then we adore only God and worship God, the Saints, all persons, and every creature with the worship that is due to each. One will find both of these usages in Catholic writings – which is why we cannot just assert a set vocabulary and pretend that no official text or prayer has ever said in English that we “worship the Angels and Saints.” If we try to do that, some disputant will find one of the old prayers and wave it in our face.

As Catholics, I suggest that we adopt a strict usage, as was the case in earlier years, and be careful to say: we adore God but worship every person and thing as they are due, all for the love of God.

Pax Domini semper nobiscum.

JRH

P.S. We should not be too surprised by this difficulty. We have the same difficulty in the Latin writings of the Church with the words “latria” and “dulia.” The custom of reserving the first to God and the second being used generally is the innovation of St. Augustine of Hippo, but is not absolutely universal even in the Latin literature. So, we need to revisit these points for each new catechumen, because the Lord desires each person to be brought to a knowledge of the truth – and that is not done by just teaching a vocabulary that solves the problem, without helping the student to appreciate what the problem is and how it is solved. Without this appreciation, the problem is not really solved and the student is left defenseless when the real issue is first noticed.
 
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