Theater a Disreputable Profession?

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Allegra said:
Posts used to be removed because they violated forum rules, but now they are removed because someone was “offended” by them.
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This is repeated frequently, but it just isn’t true

Flagging a post brings it to the attention of a moderator, it does not, and cannot, delete it.

In the special case of a full member (Trust Level 2 or higher) flagging a new member (Trust Level 0), the post may be hidden pending moderator action.

Also, enough flags can temporarily affect a thread, again pending moderation action.

If the post goes away, or the thread is locked, it is because the moderator handling it agreed that it was inappropriate. If the moderator does not agree, the thread reopens or the post defaults to visible again (generally, a flag-hidden post can be clicked upon to read).

It just isn’t true that flagging a posts are removed or threads locked over the opinion of the flaggers.

hawk
 
When a post is flagged, you get a message that says that “members of the community found it offensive.” It does not say “a moderator found that it violated a rule”. If what you say is true, then the message they send out is inaccurate, but I don’t think it IS true. Very few posts that I’ve seen removed actually violated any rules, even the vaguest definition of charity. Someone just felt “offended” which basically means they disagreed with it. The old forum ran off of actual rules, which while I thought people sometimes took them to extremes, (I was once accused of “asking for medical advice” when I asked about the best way to sanitize the parts of a breast pump.) at least they were somewhat predictable and everyone was held to the same standard.
 
What I’ve said comes from the descriptions of how the software works. I’ve described the very limited circumstances in which flags actually have a direct effect.

Messages from camoderator are from a person, not automated (although they clearly have templates)–and afaik, such messages are only sent when a live moderator removes or otherwise responds.

You could respond to such a message asking for clarification to avoid repeating the mistake (as opposed to responding to argue the point).
 
Allegra said:
Very few posts that I’ve seen removed actually violated any rules, even the vaguest definition of charity.
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You and I must be looking at totally different sets of removed posts then. The vast majority of the removed posts I’ve seen were either a) rude and nasty, or b) sexually explicit, or c) clearly off-topic for the thread and often posted in a thread with the intent of hijacking discussion or disrupting the thread. I have seen a few cases of “viewpoint discrimination” and I don’t like that when it happens (most often I see it in the SSPX threads, which I now avoid) but that’s like 10 percent of the total removals.
 
I usually stick to the Catholic Living threads. I don’t think I’ve seen anything “sexually explicit” in those threads at all!
 
The Family Life subforum has had a bunch. Usually either masturbation threads, or people having sexual issues with their spouses who post way too many intimate details. The mods are pretty good about removing such threads quickly so that may be why you don’t notice them.
 
I don’t have much to say on those subjects, nor is either issue a problem for me, so I don’t usually click on the title that suggest those topics. I have seen absolutely civil threads where someone comes in and declares their offense at something or that “we shouldn’t be discussing x, y, or z” and the next thing, the thread is closed.
 
I agree with you that the Mass is reality, while theater is illusion.

HOWEVER…there are similarities. A priest must prepare to offer Mass–he spends years in seminary learning about the Mass and how to offer it. This schooling can be compared to the education that theater professionals complete before they are able to do their work.

He has a set of rubrics that tells him the order of the various parts of the Mass and what he is to say, and when he is to kneel, stand, raise his hands, bow his head, etc.–this set of rubrics can be compared to a “Script”.

In large churches and for important occasions (e.g., the installing of a bishop in a diocese), there is a Master of Ceremonies who makes sure that everyone is where they are supposed to be and says what they are supposed to say and does what they are supposed to do. The Master of Ceremonies can be compared to a “Stage Manager.”

A Mass is offered in the “sanctuary”–usually a raised place in the building that is visible to all who are present. The sanctuary can be compared to a “stage.”

The congregation is seated in pews in a nave, usually in rows or in the round, facing the altar so that they can see what is happening, and sometimes in a balcony. The pews and nave can be compared to “the house” in a theater, and the congregation can be compared to “the audience.”

AND–the priest must prepare in advance for the Mass, and so do the musicians, the altar servers, the lector, the cantor, even the ushers. They have to dress a certain way (in most parishes, there is some kind of dress code–it may be more relaxed then some people feel is appropriate, but that’s up to the priests). Musicians have to practice their pieces, the lector usually reads through the readings, the altar servers have attended a “class” to learn and practice their responsibilities, and the priest has studied the Liturgical Calendar and has prepared a homily appropriate to the Scripture readings.

All of this preparation is, to me (I play piano and organ) is what makes Mass feel like theater, even though I KNOW that it’s not theater, and I KNOW that I’m not “performing,” I am serving! But it still FEELS like the same things I would do to get ready for a musical or a recital.

I understand that Christians could object if we call Mass “theater,” for the reasons you mentioned-Mass is a REAL encounter with the REAL Jesus Christ, not an “enactment”

But I will not back down from seeing the similarities between a Mass and theater, and I don’t see any denigration of the Mass in the comparison! The Lord Jesus compares His Kingdom to many different earthly objects and situations, and He certainly didn’t mean to denigrate His eternal and magnificent Kingdom by comparing it to a seed!
 
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Dear Peeps: I didn’t see your other posts but I can see a problem. Mass is a prayer of thanksgiving to God, and theater and acting are a profession, as you mentioned reputable and worthy. But Mass is not carried out as an acting job in any sense of the word. The participants are praying joyfully, with heartfelt communication with God. This is no act. This is not so clearly understood by the people who took offense but they do naturally know the difference between an acting job and the Mass. The offense is in your trying to start a conversation based on the false premise that there is any comparison of acting to participation in Mass. Anyone who really sees Mass this way misses completely what is going on in practice of faith and the Mass. I hope you see the difference.
 
No, I don’t see the difference, so I’m missing out on everything in Catholicism.

OK.
 
Is it possible that you are completely missing what goes on when a person engages in the theatrical arts? I’m not much of an actress, but I am a musician, and I understand the level of emotional and spiritual engagement in creating art in real time. Most people recognize that music can be a sincere form of prayer, so why not acting? I understand that it isn’t a “perfect analogy”, but I highly doubt the OP intended to say that the Mass is like the theater in every possible way, but that there are certain parallels between the two.
 
To provide a little background, there has been (as shown by many threads on this forum) a great concern and controversy about forms of the Mass since Vatican II, including over some elements like liturgical dance, contemporary music, Santa Claus, laypeople holding hands around the altar, clergy wearing sports jerseys or mascot gear, even “clowns” (although we all agree the “Clown Mass” is an extreme case).

A comparison of Mass with theater would likely raise all those unpleasant (and in some cases, restricted or prohibited) elements in the mind of those reading.

There is also the issue of theater being both entertainment, and also its being an unreal representation. The actor gets “into character”, sometimes deeply into character, but he is still acting. He does not become the character. The play is not his life. It’s not reality. No matter how deeply he invests himself in what he is doing, it’s important that he not lose the boundary between his own self and the character. Entire plays, films, books, bios etc have focused on the negative things that can happen when an actor loses this boundary.

When it comes to Christ and the Mass, there are no boundaries. We are seeing the real, actual sacrifice of Christ occurring again, not a mere representation or symbolic presentation of it. At Easter I might go to a passion play such as “Tetelestai”, or watch a performance of “Jesus Christ Superstar”. These plays are symbolic representations.
But the Mass is real.
That’s the difference.
 
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Peeps said:
No, I don’t see the difference, so I’m missing out on everything in Catholicism.

OK.
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‘Missing out on everything in Catholicism’? Really? No-one here is suggesting anything close.

Are you honestly saying that you cannot see an important difference between theatre - where part of the deal is that a person pretends to be other than what they are - and reality?

Do you genuinely see no difference between Tom Cruise performing the part of a military pilot in Top Gun one one hand, and someone who actually is a military pilot in real life on the other? If you were the real-life military pilot, would you not think that someone was missing a pretty significant point if they said they saw no difference between yourself and Tom Cruise?
 
Peeps said:
I understand that Christians could object if we call Mass “theater,” for the reasons you mentioned-Mass is a REAL encounter with the REAL Jesus Christ, not an “enactment”
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This is what I wrote in my post right above yours. I think perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read that post.

I think it’s obvious that I see the difference between theater and the Mass, and that I see the difference between Tom Cruise playing a part and someone who is actually a military pilot in real life.

You said that “the offense is in your trying to start a conversation based on the false premise that there is any comparison of acting ot participation in Mass. Anyone who really sees Mass this way misses completely what is going on in the practice of faith and the Mass. I hope you see the difference.”

Yes, I see the difference. And I still think that there are comparisons between the Mass and theater, which I outlined in my post above.

And apparently this is another topic that I will not ever try to discuss with Catholics again. It seems that it’s just too sensitive and upsets them too much. I apologize, and in my defense, I’ll remind everyone that I am a convert from Evangelical Protestantism (2004), and still haven’t picked up “Catholic lingo” and “Catholic conversation killers.”
 
Peeps said:
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Peeps:
I understand that Christians could object if we call Mass “theater,” for the reasons you mentioned-Mass is a REAL encounter with the REAL Jesus Christ, not an “enactment”
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This is what I wrote in my post right above yours. I think perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read that post.

I think it’s obvious that I see the difference between theater and the Mass, and that I see the difference between Tom Cruise playing a part and someone who is actually a military pilot in real life.

You said that “the offense is in your trying to start a conversation based on the false premise that there is any comparison of acting ot participation in Mass. Anyone who really sees Mass this way misses completely what is going on in the practice of faith and the Mass. I hope you see the difference.”

Yes, I see the difference. And I still think that there are comparisons between the Mass and theater, which I outlined in my post above.

And apparently this is another topic that I will not ever try to discuss with Catholics again. It seems that it’s just too sensitive and upsets them too much. I apologize, and in my defense, I’ll remind everyone that I am a convert from Evangelical Protestantism (2004), and still haven’t picked up “Catholic lingo” and “Catholic conversation killers.”
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Put it like this. I am a lawyer. A lot of the things you have pointed out about Mass are things I could also say about a courtroom. Judges wear special costumes (wigs and robes), sit on a special elevated bench that no-one else may approach without permission, there are rules about where and when the participants stand, sit and may speak and so on.

But the purpose for which a court exists, let alone the reasons these things are done in court, is very different from those of theatre or other performance. And that means a big difference in attitude.

I did a little amateur acting when I was younger, and can vouch for it that I have a hugely different feeling being in a real court where real decisions are made that really impact on people’s lives and futures than I did when on stage in a musical for purposes of pleasing a crowd, regardless that there are some similarities.
 
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Well, you didn’t say that all liturgical ritual is like theater, did you? Just the EF. Here is what you said:
"I’m guessing that a lot of priests would struggle to learn that unless they are natural dancers or actors! And heaven help them if they mess it up–someone would be sure to tell them!
If they do it all the time, it would eventually become ingrained, but offering the EF Mass just once a week would make it hard for the required choreography to “stick.” (Could they use cue cards or have a headset where a stage manger would constantly feed them the steps, gestures, etc.?)"
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Is it the very formal liturgical ritual that seems "too much like theater" to you, perhaps?
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The attitude to ritual in Protestant churches? Non-Catholic Religions
Even in the wildest of charismatic churhes (with dancing, rolling on the floor, tougues, and howling) they have a ‘ritual’, they might not call it that, but they do nonetheless.
wink
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Yes, to me, ithe EF Mass seems like theater. The EF Mass is so complex, and all the movements and gestures and postures are significant. I’m sure it happens, but I have not seen a priest in the EF say, “Oops, sorry, everyone, I forgot to (fill in)” and the congregation nods and smiles and doesn’t mind in the least. I can’t even imagine that happening in the EF, not even with the altar servers, who seem extremely well-trained and well-prepared.

Even the music–there are no hymns, and the various chants are done in their entirety, which i like! (even though I really don’t like chant much, but I don’t mind it as much if is done by men who know what they are doing and have both good chant technique and lots of rehearsal–oops!—sorry, theatrical term!–I mean “preparation”. And I like not having to “play” the chant–I just give the leader a pitch on the organ (very softly!), and he runs with it (oops, sports term!).

Chant in the OF Mass, at least in my parish, is done by the congregation, and most of us don’t know the chant (anyone who was a child or not born during Vatican II, or is a convert from a non-mainline Protestant church didn’t grow up with chant). Latin doesn’t sound very reverent when it is done with Midwestern diphthongs, and chant doesn’t sound reverent at all when it is done with country/rock “slides!” Euuuugh!

I think it’s not a good thing that in the OF Masses, hymns are truncated after the 2nd or 3rd verse. Most of the older hymns (including the Haugen hymns and the St. Louis Jesuits hymns) are written as “stories” or “admonitions,” and often, the hymn makes no sense, or at best, if less effective, unless the beginning, middle, and end are all sung or heard! Of course, IMO, even one verse of a hymn is worth doing–I love hymns, and that’s one reason I would not want to attend the EF Mass on a regular basis.
 
Hmm. Well that seems like a step up from when you said that chant is used in horror movies. : )

I wonder if you have ever had the opportunity to study Catholic sacred liturgical music at all?
 
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No, not really.

I majored in music in college for a year, and eventually earned a minor, which back in the 1980s meant being part of a performing group (choir/madrigals) and accompanying, along with classes in Music History, Ethnic Music, Theory, and Conducting.

When we first converted (2004), I borrowed the parish school Music History text that is used to teach middle school students, and read through it. I’ve also volunteered as the accompanist at our city’s Traditional Catholic school (Latin Mass, Latin in every grade, etc.–it’s not a “parish school”) so I’ve picked up bits and pieces from their teacher.

I’ve read through several online sites.

I’ve attended several of the Pipe Organ Encounters and occasionally have picked up odds and ends.

I work full time, and after work, do a lot of community projects. I also help my husband with his elderly parents. I play the piano and organ at several parishes and also several Protestant churches when I am needed. I play what they tell me to play.

Why do you ask?
 
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