M
mark_a
Guest
Why the English-y sounding prayers?
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T
Timidity
Guest
mark a:
That’s part of it. People are hesitant to “update” prayers if the meaning is still clear. Although these language fragments are left over from earlier versions of English, they’re still understandable.
Because we speak English?
That’s part of it. People are hesitant to “update” prayers if the meaning is still clear. Although these language fragments are left over from earlier versions of English, they’re still understandable.
G
Grayton
Guest
Words like “thee, thou and art” may have been used among some United States subcultures even after they passed out of common speech in England. For example, the late President Nixon grew up hearing his Quaker family use these words in everyday speech during the first decades of the Twentieth Century!
Aside from that, in the recent Vatican instruction on the liturgy, Liturgiam Authenticam (paragraph 27), the Church urges translators to use language that is “truly memorable and capable of expressing heavenly realities. . . … Thus it may happen that a certain manner of speech which has come to be considered somewhat obsolete in daily usage may continue to be maintained in the liturgical context.” Many people believe that prayer including “thee” and “thou” takes it somewhat out of everyday speech and lifts our mind to the heavenly realities.
The document can be viewed at:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html
Aside from that, in the recent Vatican instruction on the liturgy, Liturgiam Authenticam (paragraph 27), the Church urges translators to use language that is “truly memorable and capable of expressing heavenly realities. . . … Thus it may happen that a certain manner of speech which has come to be considered somewhat obsolete in daily usage may continue to be maintained in the liturgical context.” Many people believe that prayer including “thee” and “thou” takes it somewhat out of everyday speech and lifts our mind to the heavenly realities.
The document can be viewed at:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html
I
Iohannes
Guest
Actually Thee’s Thou’s and Thy’s are very helpful:
What do they mean?
Thou = Second person Nominative Singular pronoun
You= Second person Nominative plural pronoun
Thee= Second person accusative singular pronoun
ye= Second person accusative plural pronoun
Examples:
Pax Vobiscum = The Lord be with you
“you” refering to more than one person, basically peace be with everyone
Pax Tecum = The Lord be with thee
“Thee” refers to only one person or peace be with one person.
What do they mean?
Thou = Second person Nominative Singular pronoun
You= Second person Nominative plural pronoun
Thee= Second person accusative singular pronoun
ye= Second person accusative plural pronoun
Examples:
Pax Vobiscum = The Lord be with you
“you” refering to more than one person, basically peace be with everyone
Pax Tecum = The Lord be with thee
“Thee” refers to only one person or peace be with one person.
I
Iohannes
Guest
mark a:
More helpful in determining if someone is refering to one person or a group of persons. And it sound good too!
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Ray_Marshall
Guest
“Thee, thou, thy and thine” are the old personal, intimate forms in the English language used by families, friends and lovers.
Who is closer to us than God?
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puzzleannie
Guest
these pronouns come from the Germanic influence in middle English, to express intimate relationships (see Martin Buber on I-thou relationship with God), similar to difference between tu and usted in Spanish.
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DaveBj
Guest
Thou hast reversed the y-pronouns. “You” is objective case (as in thine example, “Peace be with you”, and “ye” is nominative case.
This was the usage in pre-Elizabethan, pre-Shakespeare English. The usage of the th- pronouns as an indication of intimacy, pointed out by Ray Marshall, was the norm in Shakespeare’s writing. However, the practice in the KJV (and, I presume, the D-R) was to maintain the usage from previous English translations that were done at a time when the th/y distinction was singular/plural.
DaveBj
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
Ray Marshall said:
Tis a pity that we are losing them.
:nope:
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mark_a
Guest
Excellent stuff folks, thanks.
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Iohannes
Guest
Woops thanks for the correction.
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DaveBj
Guest
Here’s a trivia question–five phantom reputation points for the first right answer.
In Elizabethan English, when directly modifying a noun, when is “thy” used and when is “thine” used?
DaveBj
In Elizabethan English, when directly modifying a noun, when is “thy” used and when is “thine” used?
DaveBj
I
Iohannes
Guest
Let me guess.
“thy” is used when modifying a nominative noun.
“Thine” is used when modifying a accusative noun.
“thy” is used when modifying a nominative noun.
“Thine” is used when modifying a accusative noun.
S
stellina
Guest
Actually, they’re leftovers from a period where English still had a polite form of address. There’s still a polite form (basically different second person pronouns) in Italian and I think most Romance languages. In Italian it’s used when you’re addressing a stranger or a superior in age or status, but the funny thing is that Italian uses the familiar form to address God in prayers! I’d be interested in hearing from those who speak other languages.
Language is a fascinating thing, but often confusing as well!
Language is a fascinating thing, but often confusing as well!
I
Iohannes
Guest
In Latin the “Tu” can be translated into “Thou” and “Vos” can be translated into “You”.
D
DaveBj
Guest
Good guess, but no cigar. Anyone else want to try?
Iohannes:
Hint: the same rules apply when using my/mine.
DaveBj
Mark 9:47–“If thine eye offend thee…” is nominative.
Matt. 1:20–"…fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife…" is objective (English doesn’t have an accusative case).
Hint: the same rules apply when using my/mine.
DaveBj
B
buffalo
Guest
We are too stupid to be able to grasp their meaing. Same thing with disciples and friends during Consecration. Most small children are smart enough to understand the difference between a friend and a disciple (follower). I wonder when the dumbing down will end.
M
mark_a
Guest
Maybe this is why the CCC tells us to educate our children.
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DaveBj
Guest
No takers, eh? Okay, here’s the answer.
The rules for thy/thine and my/mine are the same as the rules for a/an–the former in each pair is used before words starting with a consonant, and the latter is used before words starting with a consonant.
This shows up a couple of interesting things in the pronunciation of the English of that period. First, combinations like “thine house/thine heart” show that the dropped initial “h-” that Prof. Henry Higgins was trying to hard to get Eliza Doolittle to overcome (My Fair Lady was normal in the 16th-17th centuries. Second, the phrase “such an one” shows that “one” had not yet acquired its initial “w-”. Indeed, the archaic pronunciation has been preserved only in the adjective “only” and in the compound word “at-one-ment.”
DaveBj (language geek)
M
mark_a
Guest
Now I can relate. Thanks.
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