Theft on the internet

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It’s free and open does not earn anyone a living. Morality matters and will continue to matter. The bottom line is this: continuing research on protecting copyrighted works will continue. The FBI will not be going away.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ok a hypothetical question. … I download Bob Seger and the Last Heard’s song Heavy Music. It’s been out of print for many years. Oh yes I forgot its the long version too!. I don’t think I’m stealing because there is no other way to get it other than downloading.
 
It’s free and open does not earn anyone a living. Morality matters and will continue to matter. The bottom line is this: continuing research on protecting copyrighted works will continue. The FBI will not be going away.

Peace,
Ed
Then continue by all means to protect your interests. But as it stands now, the industry is in a very weak strategic position, and all they can do is cry theft. The FBI cannot keep track of all peers; it’s just not possible due to numbers and jurisdiction. If this is all they rely on, this industry will die and rightly so.

It’s their problem, not the consumers’.
 
It’s free and open does not earn anyone a living. Morality matters and will continue to matter. The bottom line is this: continuing research on protecting copyrighted works will continue. The FBI will not be going away.

Peace,
Ed
It looks like that morality matters only when it comes to others but it does not include the behaviors of RIAA.
 
It’s free and open does not earn anyone a living. Morality matters and will continue to matter. The bottom line is this: continuing research on protecting copyrighted works will continue. The FBI will not be going away.
The RIAA is out of touch with the market- they’ve had their heyday, and are trying to hold onto it by spending a lot of time and money taking teenagers to court and fining them millions of dollars for uploading a couple of songs. They should be spending their resources finding ways to change their business model to benefit from the challenges presented by new technology.

The best way to curb piracy is to make desirable products affordable and easy to access. It would be one thing if we were talking about a finite resource, like gold, but we’re talking about little plastic discs that can be churned out by the billions for a fraction of a cent per unit.

Look at other companies that are thriving on the open source nature of the internet…
Google literally gives products away for free- and they are one of the biggest companies in the world. Look at the latest web browser they developed- they released source code for anyone to download, free of charge, to use however they see fit- personal or business! That’s like KFC giving away their recipe!

But Google is still making money off of it because they have developed their revenue model to benefit from those qualities of the internet that you say are going to destroy businesses.

And what do you really think about bringing the FBI in on this?
We, the taxpayers, foot the bill for the FBI’s operations- I don’t want them wasting their time protecting the interests of a bunch of rich record producers who are throwing the equivalent of a corporate hissy fit by refusing to updating their business models. The FBI should be spending their time doing what they’re best at- cleaning up after extra terrestrials :onpatrol: :eek: :onpatrol:
 
Here is what is being done:

afterdawn.com/news/archive/15859.cfm

america.gov/st/texttrans-english/2008/April/20080425183055liameruoy0.1522486.html

The fair and legitimate rights of individuals and companies to protect their intellectual properties will be upheld.

Peace,
Ed
Those efforts are a huge waste of taxpayer resources. Just like any other criminal process involving production and sale of illegal goods, it will continue as long as there is a demand for it in the market, and so regardless of how restrictive the laws become, people will find a way to fill that demand.

These media piracy outfits- especially in the eastern block and asia, are well organized and efficient, and even have reputations as respectable businesses in those communities. The people in those countries who are buying this counterfeit merchandise do not have enough expendable wealth to afford those products at the prices demanded by the original producers in America or Europe.These pirates provide jobs in areas where people can’t get work, and the low-priced nature of their counterfeit products makes them available to people who would never, ever be able to afford the legitimate parent product.

If the various media companies had any sense at all, they would deal with the pirates just as other companies deal with their competition- either by (1)out producing them, out distributing them, and under cutting their prices until their competition goes out of business, or (2) hiring these pirates on as local distributors, thereby assuming control of their distribution outlets in exchange for giving them a legal income stream.
 
Those efforts are a huge waste of taxpayer resources. Just like any other criminal process involving production and sale of illegal goods, it will continue as long as there is a demand for it in the market, and so regardless of how restrictive the laws become, people will find a way to fill that demand.

These media piracy outfits- especially in the eastern block and asia, are well organized and efficient, and even have reputations as respectable businesses in those communities. The people in those countries who are buying this counterfeit merchandise do not have enough expendable wealth to afford those products at the prices demanded by the original producers in America or Europe.These pirates provide jobs in areas where people can’t get work, and the low-priced nature of their counterfeit products makes them available to people who would never, ever be able to afford the legitimate parent product.

If the various media companies had any sense at all, they would deal with the pirates just as other companies deal with their competition- either by (1)out producing them, out distributing them, and under cutting their prices until their competition goes out of business, or (2) hiring these pirates on as local distributors, thereby assuming control of their distribution outlets in exchange for giving them a legal income stream.
Exactly. The problem is that these illegitimate outfits offer a better market option for many people. A modified form of forward integration is a possible strategy the record producers may take.

That is, however, not as easy for torrent sites, Gnutella and others like it.

Like it or not, the pirates are competition for the same stakeholders, namely, the consumers. They ought to compete along one of three fronts: cost, differentiation, or focus. The problem is, they do neither. No cost advantage. No differentiator. No focus. How can they expect to survive? By bringing in state resources to protect their business? How different is that from Communist economies? Right now, they do nothing but whine and deploy enforcement against small-time pirates, but they merely remove the scab without curing the disease.

Let businesses live or die under the rules of the market. If they can’t compete, then they should cut their losses and fold. That’s true for any industry, including entertainment.
 
Exactly. The problem is that these illegitimate outfits offer a better market option for many people. A modified form of forward integration is a possible strategy the record producers may take.

That is, however, not as easy for torrent sites, Gnutella and others like it.

Like it or not, the pirates are competition for the same stakeholders, namely, the consumers. They ought to compete along one of three fronts: cost, differentiation, or focus. The problem is, they do neither. No cost advantage. No differentiator. No focus. How can they expect to survive? By bringing in state resources to protect their business? How different is that from Communist economies? Right now, they do nothing but whine and deploy enforcement against small-time pirates, but they merely remove the scab without curing the disease.

Let businesses live or die under the rules of the market. If they can’t compete, then they should cut their losses and fold. That’s true for any industry, including entertainment.
Right-

And I should have added that the large scale media piracy outfits understand the nature of their business- they know that they are a parasitic operation, and know full well that they can’t survive unless they have someone else’s work to leech off of. But they also understand that they are almost impossible to catch because they operate in underdeveloped countries where they can bribe law enforcement, and have the capacity to cheaply and easily relocate their production centers practically overnight.

They understand that it is in their best interests to find a way to at least coexist with the media producers they steal from-

The media producers should figure out a way to turn this to their advantage, rather than keep muddling down the same path that has proven to be expensive, unsustainable, and ultimately fruitless.
 
What exactly are the “pirates” doing to earn their share of the profits?

Did they write the music, screenplay, etc?

Did they invest money in promoting an artist or movie?
 
What exactly are the “pirates” doing to earn their share of the profits?

Did they write the music, screenplay, etc?

Did they invest money in promoting an artist or movie?
They are effective product distributors and could be contracted legally to do this.

This is not unprecedented- railways used to hire on train hijackers in the “old west” as protection services. In most cases, the hijackers preferred the opportunity to have a steady income and to live legitimate lives. This was particularly beneficial to the railways because the newly contracted security workers had a unique knowledge of the raiders who refused to take the offer, because they used to be their competition.

In the same way, contracting with a handful of these outfits might have the added benefit of providing incentive for these new contractors to find ways to run the illegitimate outfits out of business.

Finding, charging, and sentencing these outfits is a losing business- if any progress is to be made, it is going to have to be unconventional.

Or, alternatively, they could just keep suing teenagers for millions of dollars.
 
They are effective product distributors and could be contracted legally to do this.
My impression is that the cause here is to push the legal line from where it stands to include a third party. I personally think the line is fine where it is - artist and production companies.

Therories are interesting when it comes to law, but practical reality is the test. Here is my question: Let us say you are planning to donate some personal property to Goodwill. Let us say a DVD player and a big screen TV. If prior to you taking the stuff to a Goodwill store I go into your house, remove your stuff and give it to a third party am I not simply an outreach of Goodwill Industries? You, on the other hand, might expect me to be arrested and put in jail.
This is not unprecedented- railways used to hire on train hijackers in the “old west” as protection services. In most cases, the hijackers preferred the opportunity to have a steady income and to live legitimate lives. This was particularly beneficial to the railways because the newly contracted security workers had a unique knowledge of the raiders who refused to take the offer, because they used to be their competition.
Interesting bit of history.
Finding, charging, and sentencing these outfits is a losing business- if any progress is to be made, it is going to have to be unconventional.
The conventional action of deciding to be a law abiding citizens would make tremendous progress. However, that would lock out the “pirates” from the pile of booty. Then they would have to amass their own stockpile of resources through their own effort.
Or, alternatively, they could just keep suing teenagers for millions of dollars.
How many teenagers have been sued?
 
I hear the argument many times that it’s not stealing because the owner still has exactly the same 1’s and 0’s, you only copied information.
You know, I have heard men use the same argument to justify rape. “She didn’t lose anything; she’s still got everything she had before! What’s the big deal?”
 
My impression is that the cause here is to push the legal line from where it stands to include a third party. I personally think the line is fine where it is - artist and production companies.
The cause here is to restore order to the market by reducing the activities of people who leech off of the work of others.

Sure, one way is approach it as a zero sum game where the only way for the copyright holders to “win” is for the copyright violators to “lose.” So far, that has meant that we have to spend millions of tax payer dollars, pay government officials to investigate and gather evidence internationally on suspected criminals, wade through bureaucratic paperwork for years while we wait for permission from foreign governments to arrest and extradite some of their citizens to put them on trial in our courts, and then do it all again when someone picks up where that guy left off before we caught him.

So far, that method hasn’t been all that successful, and the black market for these goods continues to develop at increasing rates.

Or, on the other hand, the RIAA, et.al., can admit that they can’t control the market through their traditional channels, and find innovative ways to participate in the profit stream generated by their products- which may or may not include recognizing these illegitimate outfits as filling a gap in their business model.
Therories are interesting when it comes to law, but practical reality is the test.
Good point- let’s apply it to the issue at hand…

Theory: The RIAA, et. al., can effectively end media piracy by demanding that the law enforcement and judicial systems in our country enforce increasingly restrictive legislation governing media reproduction and distribution.

Practical Reality: Media piracy continues to flourish.
Here is my question: Let us say you are planning to donate some personal property to Goodwill. Let us say a DVD player and a big screen TV. If prior to you taking the stuff to a Goodwill store I go into your house, remove your stuff and give it to a third party am I not simply an outreach of Goodwill Industries? You, on the other hand, might expect me to be arrested and put in jail.
This is a strawman argument, and is just a distraction from the actual issues at hand. If you want to emphasize particular elements of your position, then do so in the context of this conversation.
The conventional action of deciding to be a law abiding citizens would make tremendous progress. However, that would lock out the “pirates” from the pile of booty. Then they would have to amass their own stockpile of resources through their own effort.
Well, sure- we’d all live in a much better world if everyone took the time to fully understand the full moral weight of their actions, and actually used that knowledge to live good lives.

We’d also live in a much better world if broccoli tasted like chocolate.

But which one should we try to achieve first??? Decisions, decisions…
How many teenagers have been sued?
According to a recent article on this topic…

“the recording industry has filed, settled, or threatened legal actions against at least 30,000 individuals. These individuals have included children, grandparents, unemployed single mothers, college professors—a random selection from the millions of Americans who have used P2P networks. And there’s no end in sight; new lawsuits are filed monthly, and now they are supplemented by a flood of “pre-litigation” settlement letters designed to extract settlements without any need to enter a courtroom.”

source: eff.org/wp/riaa-v-people-years-later
 
Or, on the other hand, the RIAA, et.al., can admit that they can’t control the market through their traditional channels, and find innovative ways to participate in the profit stream generated by their products- which may or may not include recognizing these illegitimate outfits as filling a gap in their business model.
This argument just doesn’t work. There is no “gap” in the business model. I can go to Amazon or turn on ITunes and legally buy a song. Or I can go to a P2P site and steal one. There are completely legal alternatives to this. It’s akin to saying that because people shoplift at a grocery store that the grocer must be doing something wrong.
 
This argument just doesn’t work. There is no “gap” in the business model. I can go to Amazon or turn on ITunes and legally buy a song. Or I can go to a P2P site and steal one. There are completely legal alternatives to this. It’s akin to saying that because people shoplift at a grocery store that the grocer must be doing something wrong.
Mama used to work at Wal-Mart and a large number of the shoplifters caught there had the money to pay for what they stole – they just didnt think they ought to have to pay for it for one reason or another.

And for all of you who think the Chinese ought to be allowed to sell cheap knock-offs of legal products at lower prices, are you the same people who are screaming about all your jobs being moved over to China and given to people who make cheap knockoff versions of what you used to make, and sell them at Wal-Mart?
 
Ok a hypothetical question. … I download Bob Seger and the Last Heard’s song Heavy Music. It’s been out of print for many years. Oh yes I forgot its the long version too!. I don’t think I’m stealing because there is no other way to get it other than downloading.
No one has answered my question yet? Affraid to touch that one or something?
 
No one has answered my question yet? Affraid to touch that one or something?
Okay, here is my counterargument: Say I want a Bobby Orr rookie card but the only way I can get one is by breaking into the Hockey Hall of Fame and stealing theirs?

Or perhaps what if I want a really nice handmade wedding dress but it happens to belong to you and the only way I can get it is by wangling an overnight invitation to your house and smuggling your dress out the back door in my duffle bag?

This whole discussion boils down to Is there such a thing as private proprerty or not? Those who argue that I WANNNNNIT!!! trumps IT DOES NOT BELONG TO ME, and who believe that IDOWANNA PAY FOR IT!!! trumps THOU SHALT NOT STEAL are the same people, I assume, who believe that if they are unable to get an A in a class, it is okay to steal one (i.e. to cheat) and that if they are subsequently fired when their boss finds out that they do not in fact know any of the information taught in the class, it is UNFAIR because they are VICTIMS …

On a Catholic bulletin board, I am absolutely shocked to see people arguing that lying, cheating and stealing are justified by your desire for other peoples property and your unwillingness to pay for it or inability, you believe, to get it any other way!

I am convinced that the Obamanation who was recently elected is the antichrist and attitudes like the ones expressed here are one more bit of evidence that the end times have come. Remember that They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marraige until the day the waters rose and swept them away.

You liars, cheats and thieves are going to find very soon that the water is just up to your chins and is not finished riising yet. And not all your shrieks of UNFAIR are going to stop it from drowning you.
 
***Rip Van Winkle ConservativeOne ***fell asleep after joining in this thread and just woke up (hmmm around 5 minutes ago)…😃 But I just went through replies and noticed mention of “music piracy”…Color me nervous - :eek: I started out with my own web site years ago and imported music, when applicable and if it could be downloaded. Ditto graphics. I had a “credits page” where I would acknowledge sites I’d gleaned some of these but who knows how many sound files I’ve used in emails - in particular - since I like to personalize email greetings for Christmas, birthdays and special events without acknowledgement. :eek: I will admit that in recent months I’ve found sound files to be less accessible for download.
 
This argument just doesn’t work. There is no “gap” in the business model. I can go to Amazon or turn on ITunes and legally buy a song. Or I can go to a P2P site and steal one. There are completely legal alternatives to this. It’s akin to saying that because people shoplift at a grocery store that the grocer must be doing something wrong.
Mama used to work at Wal-Mart and a large number of the shoplifters caught there had the money to pay for what they stole – they just didnt think they ought to have to pay for it for one reason or another.

And for all of you who think the Chinese ought to be allowed to sell cheap knock-offs of legal products at lower prices, are you the same people who are screaming about all your jobs being moved over to China and given to people who make cheap knockoff versions of what you used to make, and sell them at Wal-Mart?
You’re converging a few separate issues here-so let me clarify a few points

Issue 1: Is music/media piracy wrong?
Yes, of course- I’ve never said otherwise.

Issue 2: Why does it happen?
There are two issues here- individual users who download or copy media for personal use and to share with friends or on a P2P network, and organized piracy organizations like those in russia and parts of asia who mass produce and sell their wares.

These groups could also be grouped as those who don’t make money from piracy and those who do.

The first group, individuals who don’t make money, usually download and share pirated media because primarily of they think it doesn’t matter, because they are ignorant of the moral issues, because they can’t pay but feel entitled to what they want, because they feel entitled to free stuff even though they can pay, because they want to “stick it” to big companies that make lots of money. They might also claim that they want the media in a different format than is commercially available, or that they cannot otherwise purchase the product in their area.

The second group, those who earn money off of media piracy, mass produce and distribute the pirated media for the purpose of selling in places where their activities are not closely monitored, to people who either cannot afford the genuine product, cannot otherwise get access to the genuine product because of government restrictions or poor market saturation, or cannot access the genuine product in a format they desire- such as a non-region specific format (for dvds), a digital copy, or an outdated format

All of these reasons, as well as whatever other reasons I haven’t thought of, are morally unacceptable.

I do not, however, have any moral problem with a person who makes copies of media they have purchased if they are doing so only for personal use- putting a cd or dvd on their ipod, computer, making a copy for their car, etc. They have already purchased the product, and are not providing the product to anyone else.

Issue 3: What can the injured party do about this?

It seems that your suggestions are limited to one avenue- The injured parties should demand that the taxpayers supply sufficient law enforcement and judicial powers to enable them to lash out and exact justice from the evildoers in the form of jail time and huge financial payouts. This method is expensive, timely, and its success is debatable. Furthermore, it has the potential to cause injury to unwitting individuals who are caught in the middle- for example, the practice of assessing incredibly high financial consequences on individual users has damaged the general public’s appreciation for the moral authority of the industry. Fining people 10’s or 100’s of thousands of dollars for putting a digital copy of a song on the internet, especially when they were not motivated by personal gain, is disproportionate to the crime committed, and is itself an injustice.

What I am suggesting is that the industry take a pro-active approach to this problem by examining the reasons why their products are being pirated, determine whether they can proactively reduce the frequency of media piracy by providing consumers with legal alternatives to piracy which will achieve their desired goal, and adjust their business model to better accommodate the developing market. This is already happening in some ways- the most obvious example being the drastic price drops on most cd’s and dvd’s, but might also include the “digital copy” option being offered with many retail dvds, subscription based music services, or artist generated experiments such as when Radiohead released their cd for free on the internet before they released the retail copy.

At the more radical end of this line of thought, companies could accept that those organized piracy outfits, who are motivated only by personal gain, have obviously identified an untapped market of willing consumers who, for whatever reason, are willing and able to buy the product from them. Obviously, these media pirates are selling their wares to consumers somewhere- no matter how you slice it, that’s an untapped market that the legitimate media businesses have not accessed. It would be in their best interests to figure out why they have not accessed that market of consumers, and find ways to enter into that market. It may just be that the most effective and efficient inroad to that market is to incorporate and legitimize the piracy outfits.
 
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