Theif on the Cross

[TristanCross]

"Luke 23:39-43 KJV
(39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The man on the cross who had faith had no works and was not baptized. Isn’t this contrary to Catholic teaching?

 

[GeorgeSword]

It shows God’s mercy. I suppose Christ saw his heart was sincere and allowed him salvation… actually, since Christ was yet to make his sacrifice, none of that would really apply, would it?

 

[LilyM]

It’s not at all contrary to Catholic teaching. Aren’t babies saved? Can a baby do more (or even as much!) as the Good Thief?

For one thing, we actually have a slightly different interpretation of the word ‘works’ than non-Catholics. Many would consider the thief’s confession of his sin - and his confession of faith in Christ - a work. Being something he did actively and on his own initiative, rather than just passively sitting around waiting to be saved.

Not to mention that Jesus in His infinite mercy surely took into account that there was little if anything else by way of works or acts that the Good Thief COULD do in his situation.

God is not in the business of denying people salvation by demanding the impossible of them, even though He does demand difficult things at times. This is why babies can also be saved - God takes their lack of capacity to act into account.

As scripture says, with those to whom more is given (including more opportunity and more capabilities) of them more will be required. The Good Thief was given less, so less was required of him.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The man on the cross who had faith had no works and was not baptized. Isn’t this contrary to Catholic teaching?

---

**Keep in mind that St. Dismas (traditional name of the repentant thief) died BEFORE Christ gave the commanement to be baptized.

As regards his works, there’s a legend about that that need not concern us here.**

 

[kimbaichan]

Since Jesus responded as he did the “good thief” was probably Baptised by desire and preformed an act of perfect contrition. That’s what all the dialogue says to me, anyway.
This is not a Catholic Commentary but I think it has some relavence (bolding is mine):

As soon as Christ was fastened to the cross, he prayed for those who crucified him. The great thing he died to purchase and procure for us, is the forgiveness of sin. This he prays for. Jesus was crucified between two thieves; in them were shown the different effects the cross of Christ would have upon the children of men in the preaching the gospel. One malefactor was hardened to the last. No troubles of themselves will change a wicked heart. The other was softened at the last: he was snatched as a brand out of the burning, and made a monument of Divine mercy. This gives no encouragement to any to put off repentance to their death-beds, or to hope that they shall then find mercy. It is certain that true repentance is never too late; but it is as certain that late repentance is seldom true. None can be sure they shall have time to repent at death, but every man may be sure he cannot have the advantages this penitent thief had. We shall see the case to be singular, if we observe the uncommon effects of God’s grace upon this man. He reproved the other for railing on Christ. He owned that he deserved what was done to him. He believed Jesus to have suffered wrongfully. Observe his faith in this prayer. Christ was in the depth of disgrace, suffering as a deceiver, and not delivered by his Father. He made this profession before the wonders were displayed which put honour on Christ’s sufferings, and startled the centurion. He believed in a life to come, and desired to be happy in that life; not like the other thief, to be only saved from the cross. Observe his humility in this prayer. All his request is, Lord, remember me; quite referring it to Jesus in what way to remember him. Thus he was humbled in true repentance, and he brought forth all the fruits for repentance his circumstances would admit. Christ upon the cross, is gracious like Christ upon the throne. Though he was in the greatest struggle and agony, yet he had pity for a poor penitent. By this act of grace we are to understand that Jesus Christ died to open the kingdom of heaven to all penitent, obedient believers. **It is a single instance in Scripture; it should teach us to despair of none, and that none should despair of themselves; but lest it should be abused, it is contrasted with the awful state of the other thief, who died hardened in unbelief, though a crucified Saviour was so near him. **Be sure that in general men die as they live.

 

[kimbaichan]

Also, the last sentence of CCC1257 reads “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

 

[tobias]

If you take all the Gospel accounts together, we see that the other Gospel’s indicate that both thieves, at least initially, berated Jesus, that he come down off the cross.
I believe it is after Jesus’ words ‘Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do’ that the good thief rebukes his fellow thief, then turns to Christ for forgiveness.

The good thief did work-- he rebuked his fellow sinner for his offense (without dismissing his own), he repented, he asked for acceptance by Christ, he desired to be saved. He did what was in his capacity to do when faith came.

 

[Benedicte_378]

The man on the cross who had faith had no works and was not baptized. Isn’t this contrary to Catholic teaching?

No, it isn’t. Jesus did many miracles before he was hanged on the cross. This is his last miracle before he dies, is buried, rose and opened the gates to Heaven. All Jesus’ miracles was about healing from sin. This last one points to the full picture … everlasting life.

The Church (that gives us the rules) was not officially opened before 50 days after Easter (Jewish Pesach). That was on Pentecost (Jewish Shavuot) when the apostles got the Holy Spirit and when Peter (the first leader of the Church, the first pope) said with authority to the crowd:" *“But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day: But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit …” *(Acts 2:14-17).

 

[bpbasilphx]

Another thing:

Forgiveness does not change the past into a record of achievement.

 

[ready]

None of us merit salvation. Every single one of us is saved exclusively through the precious blood of Christ. The good thief did not merit his own salvation, but was saved through Christ. His final good acts were all done through the grace of God merited through Christ’s passion. The good thief corresponded with this grace and, thus, was able to be saved - through a baptism of desire, it appears.

 

[Benedicte_378]

None of us merit salvation. Every single one of us is saved exclusively through the precious blood of Christ.

Yes, that is right, but the question was: Isn’t this contrary to Catholic teaching? (No works and no babtism).

I understood the question as if it was against the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church did not come into existence before the first Pentecost. Jesus could invite the man to Paradise because he was (is) God. He had the authority to do so as the second person in the Trinity. The delegated authority to the apostles did not start to work before Pentecost.

With this (redeeming the sinner at the cross), Jesus didn’t only show Mercy there and then. He also showed us that there is always hope, even if the repentance comes first at the “deathbed”.

That means that there is hope for relatives and friends who denies God to day as long as they find him before they take their last breath.

That is also right according to what the Church teaches today (See CCC 846 - 848).

 

[ready]

That means that there is hope for relatives and friends who denies God to day as long as they find him before they take their last breath.

That is also right according to what the Church teaches today (See CCC 846 - 848).

I agree. And the story of the good thief doesn’t present any problems regarding Catholic teaching for me, especially when I take all of the Church’s teaching in its entirety. Dismas cooperated with grace and was saved. The unrepentant thief remained hard of heart and wasn’t saved. Whether the unrepentant thief remained hard of heart because God didn’t give him the grace of conversion - or whether God gave him the grace of conversion and he still obstinately refused to cooperate with grace - is a question for me. But anyone given the grace of conversion at one’s death who **cooperates **with God’s grace of conversion can be saved like Dismas according to the Church. God gives us grace and we know that everything is a grace. All we humans have to do is respond and cooperate with God’s graces by saying “yes” to them.

 

[MACHIU]

Jesus said on THIS DAY. On the day he died Jesus did not go directly to Heaven, but to visit the souls of the just, waiting for Christ’s redemption.

Jesus only ascended to Heaven on the third day of His death.

Faith without work is a dead faith. If you have faith but no work, then your faith is not complete. What is the use of yelling to people that you believe that Jesus saves mankind and He is our King? Even the devil believes that too… But devil’s work is trying to lure you away from God, while the work of faith gets you closer.

The CCC affirms the gospel by saying that anybody that dies in a state of friendship and grace of God may have a chance to go to Heaven. How? well… thankfully God prepares Purgatory, where all of the sinners that are seen fit by God to enter Heaven but not yet completely purified can wash away their sins. Is it a prick on the backside or liquid lead in your mouth? I do not believe so as in purgatory there is no physical body only spirit.

God Bless

 

[Benedicte_378]

I Dismas cooperated with grace and was saved. The unrepentant thief remained hard of heart and wasn’t saved. Whether the unrepentant thief remained hard of heart because God didn’t give him the grace of conversion - or whether God gave him the grace of conversion and he still obstinately refused to cooperate with grace - is a question for me.

Yes, it was Dismas cooperation with the grace of God that saved him. God gives everyone the grace to cooperate and to choose to say yes or no to Gods invitation. May be there had been a longing for God in Dismas’ heart in spite of his criminal record. May be this longing was enough to open him up to the grace of God at the cross while it became different for Gestas, the other thief. May be Gestas had said no to God a long time ago and hardened hid heart, so that he at this point of his life was not able to “hear” the call from God. May be he had given his heart to Satan years ago and so had become Satan’s slave. Who can mock God (Jesus) at his last moments in life (Gestas’) without being under Satan’s influence?

 

[Benedicte_378]

How? well… thankfully God prepares Purgatory,

Yes, thanks to God because we have purgatory! May be Jesus took Dismas with him into the place were all the souls were kept and he was purged there before Jesus brought him to Heaven. After all he was promised to go with Jesus to Paradise.

If so it’s a wonderful thought. One of the first who saw Jesus alive after his death was Mary from Magdala who Jesus saved from seven demons (I know about the controversies about which Mary was who). Jesus died for sinners, so it seems naturally that a former big sinner is the first to see him risen.

Why should it not be naturally that the first person brought to heaven after Jesus had conquered death was a former great sinner too?

A whore and a murderer … - that should be enough to tell every sinner, small as big, that it is never to late to trust in God’s mercy if one want to come back to God or want to say yes to his call for the first time. :heaven:

 

[ready]

Yes, it was Dismas cooperation with the grace of God that saved him. God gives everyone the grace to cooperate and to choose to say yes or no to Gods invitation. May be there had been a longing for God in Dismas’ heart in spite of his criminal record. May be this longing was enough to open him up to the grace of God at the cross while it became different for Gestas, the other thief. May be Gestas had said no to God a long time ago and hardened hid heart, so that he at this point of his life was not able to “hear” the call from God. May be he had given his heart to Satan years ago and so had become Satan’s slave. Who can mock God (Jesus) at his last moments in life (Gestas’) without being under Satan’s influence?

In certain Gospels even Dismas is said to have acted badly to Jesus when the three were hanging on their crosses. A priest once said in a homily that Dismas had a change of heart at a later point in their crucifixion and was then able to be saved. Check out the Gospels and you’ll see that both thieves were saying bad things at first to Jesus.

 

[jblake]

TristanCross;:

The man on the cross who had faith had no works and was not baptized.

One of the pseudopigraphia works claims that Dimas’ family provided Mary and Joseph with work, and a place to stay, when they were in Egypt.

A different pseudopigraphical work claims that Dimas was a sometime follower of Christ, during the three years prior to the Crucifixion. During that time period, Dimas was baptised by either one of the twelve disciples, or John the Baptist.

jonathon

 

[aball1035]

Wait-wasn’t baptism and the New Law not in effect? Weren’t people saved by the Old Law still?

 

[ready]

Wait-wasn’t baptism and the New Law not in effect? Weren’t people saved by the Old Law still?

When did Jesus tell his apostles to go out and baptise? before his death or after his resurrection? I believe it was after his ressurection. The only baptism they had when Jesus was alive before the crucifixion was the baptism of repentance in the Jordan by John the baptist.

 

[erikd]

"Luke 23:39-43 KJV
(39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The man on the cross who had faith had no works and was not baptized. Isn’t this contrary to Catholic teaching?

Tristan Cross:

I wanted to point out two issues. Number one, remember what happens to a man when he dies on the cross in the manner that God and the two thieves died. As you hang there, your lungs begin to fill with fluid and you essentially sufficate to death. With his last dying breaths, the thief defended Jesus. Rather than holding on to the last moments of his life, he defended God. That takes an incredible amount of not only determination but physical work. He was in excruciating pain and agony and yet he defended God with the only breath he had. How many of us would do that? You could also add to this the fact that since he became so devoted to God, at that very moment, he would have been Baptised had he known it was prescribed to do so. This, the Catholic Church calls “Baptism by desire.”

*1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. *
Catechism of the Catholic Church
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

Also, consider that this thief was probably not under the law of faith but rather a Jew under the law of Moses. St. Paul in all of his letters makes a clear distinction between the two (Hebrews and Romans are great examples). Therefore God’s mercy was in the works here, making the debate of salvation without works out of context in this story.