Their fruits

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Dear friend this is what he is saying. Cherry picked quotes from the Bible “WERE” used for the burning of people by Christians in the past. Christianity has since moved forward now and this is why these practices are outlawed.

There is nothing to say that similar outlawing may not occur with Islam as it learns to eliminate the practices of terrorism and the like…

🙂

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The difference is that Jesus actually taught a higher morality where Muhammad’s teachings are stuck in the 7th Century. Some good, some bad; but the bad can be used for evil as long as there are Muslims. The awful passages and the interpretations that follow will always last, where Christians have a greater knowledge of Christianity and cannot go around killing while quoting Scripture.

That’s why any evil that is done while quoting Scripture is usually a random event here or there, or something that happened hundreds of years ago. Muslims, it’s every day. Every single day, a Church is burned, a group of Christians is bombed, an Imam is preaching Sharia, etc.
 
The difference is that Jesus actually taught a higher morality where Muhammad’s teachings are stuck in the 7th Century. Some good, some bad; but the bad can be used for evil as long as there are Muslims. The awful passages and the interpretations that follow will always last, where Christians have a greater knowledge of Christianity and cannot go around killing while quoting Scripture.

That’s why any evil that is done while quoting Scripture is usually a random event here or there, or something that happened hundreds of years ago. Muslims, it’s every day. Every single day, a Church is burned, a group of Christians is bombed, an Imam is preaching Sharia, etc.
That’s all well and good, but would you not say that the teachings of Muhammad brought to the Arabian tribes what Moses brought to the tribes of Israel?

The higher level of morality in Judeo-Christianity is seen in the teachings of Jesus, and likewise the higher level of morality in Islam is seen in the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

There are distinct similarities between Judaism and Islam which cannot be ignored.
Compare the acts of Muslims today to the Zealots of Judaism during Jesus’ time…

🙂

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You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
-St James
Dear sir,

They didn’t claim to be prophets. Lord Jesus talks about persons who claim that they are messengers of the God.
 
Based on there being “good fruits” that can be found in Islam as well as “bad fruits” I would hazard a guess that the interpretation of Scripture is incorrect. This guess is also supported by Church teaching that “good fruits” can be found among all the various faiths in the world and that the Catholic faith is the real faith (i.e. not all faiths are equal in how true they are to the understanding and worship of God).
I do not interpret, sir. It is what Lord Jesus said “15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits”

Now what about Muhammad and Islam? You said “there being “good fruits” that can be found in Islam as well as “bad fruits””

Have another look to this verse please: “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.”

If Muhammad’s tree is healthy how could it bear bad fruits? If it is diseased how could it bear good fruit?

I must say again, Muhammad is a example, My Question is on the method that These verse give to us.
 
Are they good fruits as a Christian defines them? I don’t think his fruits are unreservedly in the plus column.

The Koran denies the divinity of Christ and denies the incarnation of the Son (5:17,72; cf. 9:31) and, consequently, is so monotheistic it denies the Trinity (4:171; 5:73; 112:2-3); and it denies that Jesus died for our salvation (4:157-8).

Here’s John’s answer to what does and does not constitute good fruits in this regard: “This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.” (1 Jn 4:2-3)

“And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” (Jn 1:14)

“And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.” (1 Jn 5:11-12)
Sorry sir! I don’t think so again! I have a Quran in home!

Quran says People who said “God is Jesus” are infidle on 5:72. When some one says God is Jesus, he means Jesus is Just God, and orthodoxy denies it: Jesus is both God and Human. Quran denies a heretic faith which Church denied it before.
5:17 doesn’t talk about Jesus and 9:31 doesn’t Jesus is not God.

On the 4:171 it says do not say “three” it doesn’t say three what! For example, Do you accept to say three Gods exist? Is every three means trinity?
5:73 says people who said God is third of Three are infidle. Does Holy trinity say God is third of Three? absolutly not.
112:2-3 is talking about God, not trinity.

And 4:157-9 Doesn’t say deny that Jesus died for our salvation, it says Jews said “We killed Jesus” They didn’t kill him but [another] was made to resemble him to them.
Gospels agree with Quran: Jews didn’t kill Jesus, Romans did it. Quran doesn’t say Jesus didn’t die on Cross.

We have two issues:

1.What Muhammad said

2.What Muslims say!

These are distinc
 
Sorry sir! I don’t think so again! I have a Quran in home!

Quran says People who said “God is Jesus” are infidle on 5:72. When some one says God is Jesus, he means Jesus is Just God, and orthodoxy denies it: Jesus is both God and Human. Quran denies a heretic faith which Church denied it before.
5:17 doesn’t talk about Jesus and 9:31 doesn’t Jesus is not God.

On the 4:171 it says do not say “three” it doesn’t say three what! For example, Do you accept to say three Gods exist? Is every three means trinity?
5:73 says people who said God is third of Three are infidle. Does Holy trinity say God is third of Three? absolutly not.
-3 is talking about God, not trinity.

And 4:157-9 Doesn’t say deny that Jesus died for our salvation, it says Jews said “We killed Jesus” They didn’t kill him but [another] was made to resemble him to them.
Gospels agree with Quran: Jews didn’t kill Jesus, Romans did it. Quran doesn’t say Jesus didn’t die on Cross.
So let me get this straight: the Koran teaches that Jesus is the word of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity made man who died for our salvation. I don’t think so.

Well, then maybe you’re saying it does not deny that Jesus is the word of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity made man who died for our salvation.

I too have a Koran . . . with a commentary. Dr Zohurul Hoque, The Translation and Commentary on The Holy Qur-an, Centersville, OH: Holy Qur-an Publishing Project, 2000.

In fact the Koran does deny it, according to actual Muslim scholars.

In the index on p. 1139 under “Christianity” it presents, with texts, a “refutation” of:
–“the death of Jesus on the Cross”;
–“divinity of Jesus”;
–the “Sonship of Jesus”; and
–“trinity.”

Regarding a refutation of the divinity of Jesus it refers to a further entry (p. 1174 s.v., “‘Isa”) presenting a refutation of Jesus’ divinity as being “denounced by himself” and incompatible with “death” and the fact that Allah is “Unity–sonless” and not a “trinity.”

All of these “refutations” cite the passages I cited and with the same understanding.
We have two issues:
1.What Muhammad said
2.What Muslims say!
These are distinc
We actually have a third issue:
  1. What you say.
You style yourself a Christian and present an interpretation of the Koran that flies in the face of the fundamentals of Islam. What makes you able to judge against the consensus of muslim scholars?

Take the web site IslamiCity:
“Prophet Muhammad (blessings of Allah and peace be upon him) has enjoined us to believe in five articles of faith:
1) Belief in one God Who has absolutely no associate with Him in His divinity;”

You might have your own version or spin on Islam but you disagree with the majority opinion among Muslim scholars on doctrines fundamental to Islamic faith and identity.
 
Thanks. I was utterly confused but now that you’ve quoted our entire conversation I’m back on track.

You’re saying then, that one can just as easily quote the Bible out of context to do horrendous acts; I’m saying this isn’t done at nearly the rate Muslims do so with their Qur’an. I don’t cherry pick the Qur’an, Muslims do; Christians don’t for their Bible.

We aren’t burning witches, heretics on a daily basis, why is this? Muslims kill while quoting their text at a much greater rate than Christians considering our text can be cherry picked just as easily as theirs, why is this?
Easier to misquote the Quran than the Bible- We agree on this point. It is much easier to misquote or cherry pick from the Quran than the Bible. My personal opinion as to why is because the Quran is a mishmash of various religious teachings (Jewish, Christian, heretical of the first two, pagan), cultural customs, and circumstantial teachings (things that become teachings because of the need to address a temporary time sensitive issue).

Greater rate of misquoting- Given the above, this shouldn’t be a surprise.

Cherry picking- Using cherry picking to prove Islam is wrong is a faulty approach. Not only is it dishonest, it pretty much shuts down any dialogue with Muslims (why talk with someone who needs to rig the conversation in their favor). The only valid use of cherry picking that I can see is to point out what you mention above. That it is easier to cherry pick from the Quran and then go into why. The conversation then switches from a dishonest (intentional or unintentional) version of the Quran to a conversation on the faulty construction of it. The challenge is then placed on the internal structure and consistency of the Quran (the only way to “prove” a religion or philosophy is false is to show where it conflicts with itself; hence the 2k years worth of people trying to find internal conflict within Catholic theology). If all we are doing is “the Quran is wrong, see cherry picked passage” than all we are going to get back is “the Bible is wrong, see cherry picked passage (like the site I linked earlier)”.
 
That’s all well and good, but would you not say that the teachings of Muhammad brought to the Arabian tribes what Moses brought to the tribes of Israel?

The higher level of morality in Judeo-Christianity is seen in the teachings of Jesus, and likewise the higher level of morality in Islam is seen in the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

There are distinct similarities between Judaism and Islam which cannot be ignored.
Compare the acts of Muslims today to the Zealots of Judaism during Jesus’ time…

🙂

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The Bahai here have proven to me that their Religion is quite nice, at least the members all are so pleasant. However, when I refer to Islam I refer to the giant branch that is Sunni Islam with its multiple interpretations, many of which are hateful. This is because it’s so easy to interpret the Qur’an as hateful. Whether or not this was Allah’s intention, one can argue either way.

Can anyone cherry pick the Bible? Sure. But it doesn’t change the fact that the Qur’an (and Hadiths) have extremely hateful passages that still do (daily. A Coptic cross for a new Church was desecrated by a group of Muslims under the belief that new Church’s cannot be built on Muslim land. Also the belief that Jesus will come back and “break the cross.”) cause Muslims to quote said passages while taking part in immoral acts. Christians do not do this even though we have more adherents.
 
Easier to misquote the Quran than the Bible- We agree on this point. It is much easier to misquote or cherry pick from the Quran than the Bible. My personal opinion as to why is because the Quran is a mishmash of various religious teachings (Jewish, Christian, heretical of the first two, pagan), cultural customs, and circumstantial teachings (things that become teachings because of the need to address a temporary time sensitive issue).

Greater rate of misquoting- Given the above, this shouldn’t be a surprise.

Cherry picking- Using cherry picking to prove Islam is wrong is a faulty approach. Not only is it dishonest, it pretty much shuts down any dialogue with Muslims (why talk with someone who needs to rig the conversation in their favor). The only valid use of cherry picking that I can see is to point out what you mention above. That it is easier to cherry pick from the Quran and then go into why. The conversation then switches from a dishonest (intentional or unintentional) version of the Quran to a conversation on the faulty construction of it. The challenge is then placed on the internal structure and consistency of the Quran (the only way to “prove” a religion or philosophy is false is to show where it conflicts with itself; hence the 2k years worth of people trying to find internal conflict within Catholic theology). If all we are doing is “the Quran is wrong, see cherry picked passage” than all we are going to get back is “the Bible is wrong, see cherry picked passage (like the site I linked earlier)”.
This I agree with. I apologize (sincerely) if I misinterpreted or misrepresented you. I think we were talking past each other.
 
I do not interpret, sir. It is what Lord Jesus said “15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits”

Now what about Muhammad and Islam? You said “there being “good fruits” that can be found in Islam as well as “bad fruits””

Have another look to this verse please: “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.”

If Muhammad’s tree is healthy how could it bear bad fruits? If it is diseased how could it bear good fruit?

I must say again, Muhammad is a example, My Question is on the method that These verse give to us.
Islam has two views on Judaism and Christianity-
-they have produced “good fruit,” the whole justification for Islam is that it is the conclusion of both faiths
-they have produced “bad fruit,” they have been corrupted

Given your argument (something can’t produce “good” and “bad” fruit), Islam is in internal conflict with itself and is therefore invalid. I therefore suggest you take the copy of the Quran you have and donate it to a local Mosque as you no longer need it.
 
That’s true, but if it conflicted with Church teaching on Islam, EWTN wouldn’t have aired it.

As TV Tropes would put it, “Some anvils do need to be dropped”. If X is a pro-life activist, and he says “Abortion is the greatest social evil of our time!”, he may be exaggerating (though I would agree with him), but he is also making a true statement about the heinous immorality of abortion. So exaggeration, while requiring discernment on the part of a listener or reader, may be no more than a venial offence in such cases.

Straw man. Luther broke away from the Church, rejected the Faith, and made up his own version of Christianity based on Augustine, mistranslations of the Bible (the notorious sola fide) and his own complexes. Amorth and Spencer are still well within the Church, and neither has been censured (unlike, say, Michael Voris.)

That’s nice. But I wonder what victims of 9/11, FGM, honour killings, or rapes-covered-up-by-stonings (none of which have ever been practiced by Christian nations) would learn from this expert. 😛
-Exaggeration is a lie. Lies are immoral. Mind showing me where the Church teaches one can do an immoral act for a moral reason?
-People being killed for soiling their family honor has never taken place in a Christian nation? Really?
-Terrorism has never been undertaken by Christians in the US? I guess we haven’t had abortion clinics bombed and abortionist murdered.
-Rape- Yeah, Christian societies have never blamed the victim for the crime. That’s why victims of rape have no stigma attached to them and the crime itself isn’t underreported.:rolleyes:
 
-Exaggeration is a lie. Lies are immoral. Mind showing me where the Church teaches one can do an immoral act for a moral reason?
Sigh. There are exaggerations which are not lies.

St. Pius X once said “the only solution for the world’s evils is the Pope.”

In saying so, he was not denying that the Saviour of the World is Jesus Christ; instead, he was using the rhetorical device of exaggeration to reaffirm the traditional doctrine of extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.
-People being killed for soiling their family honor has never taken place in a Christian nation? Really?
Not in a Catholic nation. Jesus Himself banned it in John 8. And certainly not in the institutionalized manner that the Wahhabis of the Taliban are going ahead with it.
-Terrorism has never been undertaken by Christians in the US? I guess we haven’t had abortion clinics bombed and abortionist murdered.
If you’re seriously equating the acts of a few deranged Protestants with an orchestrated attack on thousands of innocent civilians, well… :eek:
-Rape- Yeah, Christian societies have never blamed the victim for the crime.
Sinful humans may have assigned blame in this way; Christ and His Church never did.
That’s why victims of rape have no stigma attached to them and the crime itself isn’t underreported.:rolleyes:
See above. Also, the idea of ministering to victims of rape is found in most countries with a Christian culture; it would be viewed as blasphemy in Islam.
 
If you’re seriously equating the acts of a few deranged Protestants with an orchestrated attack on thousands of innocent civilians, well… :eek:
How many Muslim terrorists do you think there are? I’m asking because given the number of Muslims in the world you must think that there are tens of millions of Muslim terrorists for their number to be of any value in trying to pin their actions on Muslims as a whole.

Total Muslim population- around 1.6 billion
Terrorists to make up 1% of the Muslims in the world- 16 million (more than the population of Tokyo)
Terrorists to make up .01% of the Muslims in the world- 1.6 million (more than the US Active Duty military)
 
How many Muslim terrorists do you think there are? I’m asking because given the number of Muslims in the world you must think that there are tens of millions of Muslim terrorists for their number to be of any value in trying to pin their actions on Muslims as a whole.

Total Muslim population- around 1.6 billion
Terrorists to make up 1% of the Muslims in the world- 16 million (more than the population of Tokyo)
Terrorists to make up .01% of the Muslims in the world- 1.6 million (more than the US Active Duty military)
The number of active terrorists may be, as you rightly point out, small.

But the number of those who abet, aid and support those men’s actions, in word and in deed, are much more. Witness the way Pakistan provided a safe house to Osama Bin Laden, or to the terrorists responsible for the 26/11 massacre in India.
 
The number of active terrorists may be, as you rightly point out, small.

But the number of those who abet, aid and support those men’s actions, in word and in deed, are much more. Witness the way Pakistan provided a safe house to Osama Bin Laden, or to the terrorists responsible for the 26/11 massacre in India.
-Since you use the term “active terrorist,” you must think there is a “passive terrorist.” Please define “passive terrorist” and let me know how many Muslims you believe are “passive terrorists.”

-Pakistan and Bin Laden- So your argument is that a large percentage of Pakistanis knew where Bin Laden was and were protecting him (apparently passively protecting him)? What percentage of the populace of Pakistan knew where he was and were protecting him; and from where do you draw this information?
 
-Since you use the term “active terrorist,” you must think there is a “passive terrorist.” Please define “passive terrorist” and let me know how many Muslims you believe are “passive terrorists.”
🤷 Your coinage, not mine. I’d prefer the Church term “material cooperation with grave evil” to refer to what you’d call “passive terrorists”. And it’s true that in most Islamic countries, the majority of the population supports - explicitly or implicitly - the values and ideals which lead to the evils above. To them, it’s not terrorism; it’s jihad, holy war against the enemy (Jews, Christians, “The West”, Hindus…)
-Pakistan and Bin Laden- So your argument is that a large percentage of Pakistanis knew where Bin Laden was and were protecting him (apparently passively protecting him)? What percentage of the populace of Pakistan knew where he was and were protecting him; and from where do you draw this information?
The issue isn’t percentages. The issue is that they gave him a place to stay. If, say, Joseph Kony came to the US seeking protection, I’m sure he wouldn’t get it. 😛
 
🤷 Your coinage, not mine. I’d prefer the Church term “material cooperation with grave evil” to refer to what you’d call “passive terrorists”. And it’s true that in most Islamic countries, the majority of the population supports - explicitly or implicitly - the values and ideals which lead to the evils above. To them, it’s not terrorism; it’s jihad, holy war against the enemy (Jews, Christians, “The West”, Hindus…)

The issue isn’t percentages. The issue is that they gave him a place to stay. If, say, Joseph Kony came to the US seeking protection, I’m sure he wouldn’t get it. 😛
-“Active” terrorist didn’t appear in this thread prior to your post (post 75). The only way one can have an “active” terrorist category would be to also have a “passive” terrorist category.
-Well given your complete lack of any actual supporting evidence, we’d also have to conclude that the majority of Catholics support the various abuses that have taken place in the Church over the last several decades. Guilt by association and/or guilt by silence are double edged swords.
-It’s not terrorism, it’s jihad- Sure, if you believe that the less than 10% (and here I am being generous by allotting an unrealistic number of Muslims as being terrorists) of a population defines what that population believes. What percentage of Catholics believe abortion is ok? I’d wager more than 10% world wide and at the very least more than 10% here in the US. I guess the Church teaches abortion is ok. After all, why would so many Catholics say it is ok and why would so many Catholics passively allow it to happen if it weren’t ok?
 
-“Active” terrorist didn’t appear in this thread prior to your post (post 75). The only way one can have an “active” terrorist category would be to also have a “passive” terrorist category.
Perhaps my word was ill chosen. What I meant was: there are terrorists; there are those who abet and shield them; and there are those who, while not cooperating materially, still applaud or justify those actions when asked about them.
-Well given your complete lack of any actual supporting evidence,
What’s wrong with Jihad Watch? 😉
we’d also have to conclude that the majority of Catholics support the various abuses that have taken place in the Church over the last several decades. Guilt by association and/or guilt by silence are double edged swords.
The difference is that there’s no part of the Bible or Sacred Tradition that says “Go molest children”; there are several verses in the Quran and related writings about jihad and wife-beating.
-It’s not terrorism, it’s jihad- Sure, if you believe that the less than 10% (and here I am being generous by allotting an unrealistic number of Muslims as being terrorists) of a population defines what that population believes.
10% is probably an exaggeration. The people of Germany didn’t all head to volunteer for work in Dr. Mengele’s lab, but a far larger number of them supported the Third Reich.
What percentage of Catholics believe abortion is ok? I’d wager more than 10% world wide and at the very least more than 10% here in the US. I guess the Church teaches abortion is ok. After all, why would so many Catholics say it is ok and why would so many Catholics passively allow it to happen if it weren’t ok?
Non sequitur. Again, the Catholic faith does not teach that abortion is right; in fact, having or abetting an abortion is excommunicable latae sententiae - therefore, many of those who are involved in such acts aren’t even in good standing with the Church. Every Pope who’s spoken on the issue has condemned abortion. On the other hand, I’m yet to hear any authoritative voice - except a few liberal scholars in non-Islamic countries - coming out to condemn FGM, terrorism, and the like.
 
Perhaps my word was ill chosen. What I meant was: there are terrorists; there are those who abet and shield them; and there are those who, while not cooperating materially, still applaud or justify those actions when asked about them.
Those who abet and shield terrorists I would classify as terrorists. The ones who “applaud or justify” unfortunately exist (and I would even argue that such people exist as a good sized portion of a given population dependent on where we were talking about). But, we can’t judge an entire population based on this. We can’t judge the entire population because a)we don’t know their level of “applaud or justify” b)we don’t know if their applauding and justifying is based on self interest (in Iraq I ran across a lot of Iraqis who “supported” the insurgents because if they didn’t their families would be killed) and c)because such a judgment would be counterproductive to resolving the issue (usually with a “well you people do it too” argument [see the various threads about what is going on in the CAR for examples of Christians trying to justify what is going on there])

What’s wrong with Jihad Watch? 😉
The smiley makes me think you said this in jest. If not, we can address that site on a new thread.

The difference is that there’s no part of the Bible or Sacred Tradition that says “Go molest children”; there are several verses in the Quran and related writings about jihad and wife-beating.
Yes, but you are assuming that such teachings in Islam exist or that those who claim such teachings are correct about their claims.

10% is probably an exaggeration. The people of Germany didn’t all head to volunteer for work in Dr. Mengele’s lab, but a far larger number of them supported the Third Reich.
Did they support the Third Reich with full knowledge of what it was doing; and did they do so freely (as in they didn’t need to fear a midnight knock if they spoke out against it)? The same questions apply to Muslim populations, especially since they, unlike the Germans, usually live in a failed state in which the government can not protect itself (see Pakistan and it’s issues with access to certain part of it’s own country) let alone it’s citizens.

Non sequitur. Again, the Catholic faith does not teach that abortion is right; in fact, having or abetting an abortion is excommunicable latae sententiae - therefore, many of those who are involved in such acts aren’t even in good standing with the Church. Every Pope who’s spoken on the issue has condemned abortion. On the other hand, I’m yet to hear any authoritative voice - except a few liberal scholars in non-Islamic countries - coming out to condemn FGM, terrorism, and the like.
-According to some Catholics it does teach that, if not right, abortion is not wrong (which is pretty much the same).
-Who exactly do you think has the authority to speak for all of Islam and for all Muslims? It hasn’t had a central authoritative voice since the death of Muhammad (Sunni Islam and Shia Islam exist as I direct result over the issue of who was the authority). Trying to find an authoritative voice for Islam is like trying to find an authoritative voice for Protestantism.
-As for Muslims not speaking out against terrorism or just “a few liberal scholars in non-Islamic countries” doing so, how hard have you looked? Google “Islamic leaders condemn terrorism”.
 
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