Theistic evolution

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Are you saying that God changed the properties of water molecules and light after the Flood so that rainbows became possible?
Basically He could have. He could have done anything. That’s what being God is. I know that the ‘order’ of the creation is not in the ‘order’ as one might suppose using modern understandings of science - such as the fact that some animals came before the plants, etc.

Are you saying that a few molecules of water make a rainbow? I was unaware of this.

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
 
Exactly. There is no reason to believe in evolution of any sort. Especially given the fact that there is no possibility of verifying or confirming any hypothesis regarding the matter (necessary for proper application of the scientific method). Procedures used to date materials, for example, cannot account for a created universe with an ‘apparent’ age. A fully grown tree by appearances could seem 60 years old when in fact it could have been just created. The universe could appear to be 60 billion years old when likewise it may have been created in a state of existence.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak
What I find most interesting about evolutionary educators is the amount of times they see fit to use models of directed evolution (such as breeding) to make people understand random/natural evolution - as it is supposed to occur in nature. One of the funniest is by the well-known anti-religion crank Dawkins who uses a computer simulation to show how evolution might be possible. He calls these biomorphs.

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
 
Are you saying that a few molecules of water make a rainbow? I was unaware of this.
What do you mean by “make” a rainbow? Do the water droplets get together and decide to “produce” a rainbow? No, water droplets don’t “do” anything on their own, they obey the laws given them. Light passes through them and the result is a rainbow. It’s naturally occurring. “A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that causes a nearly continuous spectrum of light to appear in the sky when the Sun shines onto droplets of moisture in the Earth’s atmosphere.” (Wikipedia)

This is not to say God did not ordain rainbows. God made the universe such that rainbows exist (at least on our planet). He created the universe to obey the laws that He gave it; one of those laws denotes the behavior of light when it passes through a prism, and a water droplet can act as a prism. God made all that we observe scientifically. We understand the science behind it better now (in some fields) than we did a hundred, a thousand, or six thousand years ago. Not too long ago, women were seen as the vessels which carried babies, and babies were thought to come solely from the seed of men… ever heard of the concept of a homunculus?

It is plain to me, though, that science can not explain away God, nor should it seek to provide an explanation that disregards God. Rather, it should seek to reveal the laws with which God has endowed the universe.
 
Procedures used to date materials, for example, cannot account for a created universe with an ‘apparent’ age. A fully grown tree by appearances could seem 60 years old when in fact it could have been just created. The universe could appear to be 60 billion years old when likewise it may have been created in a state of existence.
And with what apparent age does the Bible say God endowed the elements of the earth?

And given the “possibility” of apparent age, you have absolutely no way of proving to me that the universe did not spring into existence at the very moment of my sentience and will cease to exist when I die.
 
What do you mean by “make” a rainbow? Do the water droplets get together and decide to “produce” a rainbow? No, water droplets don’t “do” anything on their own, they obey the laws given them. Light passes through them and the result is a rainbow. It’s naturally occurring. “A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that causes a nearly continuous spectrum of light to appear in the sky when the Sun shines onto droplets of moisture in the Earth’s atmosphere.” (Wikipedia)
I never assumed that the water decides, but you said that water droplets would make a rainbow
Heh, that’s a good example. As if water molecules didn’t diffract light until after the Flood.
You specifically said “A few water molecules”

In response to
"Mirdath:
or natural phenomenon. – the rainbow is an excellent example of this function of myth in Genesis.
The assumption here is that the rainbow didn’t exist prior to the flood. The rebuttal from Mirdath and then you is that this is patently false, because, as you suggest, a few water molecules must have formed one before then.

So I repeat the question
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Montalban:
Are you saying that a few water molecules caused a rainbow!
This is not to say God did not ordain rainbows.
Just not before the Flood?
God made the universe such that rainbows exist (at least on our planet). He created the universe to obey the laws that He gave it; one of those laws denotes the behavior of light when it passes through a prism, and a water droplet can act as a prism. God made all that we observe scientifically. We understand the science behind it better now (in some fields) than we did a hundred, a thousand, or six thousand years ago. Not too long ago, women were seen as the vessels which carried babies, and babies were thought to come solely from the seed of men… ever heard of the concept of a homunculus?
Homunculus? Can’t say I have. What’s its relevence to this?
It is plain to me, though, that science can not explain away God, nor should it seek to provide an explanation that disregards God. Rather, it should seek to reveal the laws with which God has endowed the universe.
But our concepts of what those laws are changes.
 
And given the “possibility” of apparent age, you have absolutely no way of proving to me that the universe did not spring into existence at the very moment of my sentience and will cease to exist when I die.
When did you become sentient? Did you not observe things before you understood them?

But either way, you don’t trust your parents when they say they existed before you?
 
It is a rival theory, regardless of whether it’s a rival scientific theory.
So is the flying spaghetti monster.
And as far as ‘evidence’ goes, well I already know that you only accept one set of evidence, anyway… which is materialistic scientific evidence.
As opposed to what other kind of scientific evidence?

Peace

Tim
 
I never assumed that the water decides, but you said that water droplets would make a rainbow. You specifically said “A few water molecules”
I apologize; I meant, as I clarified later, that water droplets with light passing through them can cause a rainbow. That is the natural cause of a rainbow: light being diffracted through a prism. Of course, I’m not a scientist, so I might be using insufficient or inaccurate language here.
The assumption here is that the rainbow didn’t exist prior to the flood. The rebuttal from Mirdath and then you is that this is patently false, because, as you suggest, a few water molecules must have formed one before then.
If there was rain, or waterfalls, or ocean waves hitting rocks along a beach, and there was sunlight passing through the mist, it is likely there was a rainbow.
Homunculus? Can’t say I have. What’s its relevence to this?
The relevance is that we have far better understanding of the process and factors of the conception and growth of a human than we had a century or a millenium ago. Generally speaking, we understand the science (that’s a broad term, I apologize) behind a good number of natural phenomena, like rainbows, clouds, “sunrises” and “sunsets”, comets, etc.
 
When did you become sentient? Did you not observe things before you understood them? But either way, you don’t trust your parents when they say they existed before you?
Of course I believe my parents existed before me. I was playing devil’s advocate with that remark.

Apparent age seems to me to be a deceptive tactic.
 
Of course I believe my parents existed before me. I was playing devil’s advocate with that remark.

Apparent age seems to me to be a deceptive tactic.
Exactly. This is one of the biggest problems with “young-earth” creationism–it is so disrespectful of God’s character. In order to accept “young-earth” creationism, one would have to think of God as almost completely deceptive. One would also have to think of God as CONTINUING to be completely deceptive, since He would have already “stacked the deck” against scientific investigation of the earth. In other words, virtually everything science discovers about the age of the Earth is already “set up” to be false–because God decided to create the universe with a deceptive “appearance” of age.
 
Exactly. This is one of the biggest problems with “young-earth” creationism–it is so disrespectful of God’s character. In order to accept “young-earth” creationism, one would have to think of God as almost completely deceptive. One would also have to think of God as CONTINUING to be completely deceptive, since He would have already “stacked the deck” against scientific investigation of the earth. In other words, virtually everything science discovers about the age of the Earth is already “set up” to be false–because God decided to create the universe with a deceptive “appearance” of age.
Not sure where the ‘deception’ is. Suppose when the world was a week old and man were to set out to measure the age of the earth. Would his instruments indicate one week? Further, if something were created from nothing (even if be the beginnnings of evolution), what qualities would the new material existence have, and what ‘apparent’ age? Would it not appear to have always existed, or would it be definitely decernible as to having been just created?
Also, can you answer that the universe as observed today ‘appears’ to have been created from nothing? Or does it appear to have always existed?

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak
 
What do you mean “it cannot go behind the means of their source”?

I explained & illustrated that in my post​

So do I. I’ve several books on evolution I’ve not yet found the time to really sit down and read.

Materialistic science can not.

Science can already detect (in certain fields) where non-natural things happen.

That’s not the same as detecting - never mind recognising - God.​

If God could be detected by science - no matter of what kind - that would mean that God was no more than some wretched “god-of-the-gaps”; IOW, the godlet of ID. And such a godlet is not the God of Christian theism, or of the later Prophets. It’s no more than a titivated modern version of the very idols the Prophets exhausted themselves in denouncing, even though it is dressed up in science. But God it is not.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” - that is how God is detected; not by scientific means. For purity of heart is itself His gift. The sciences most definitely have their uses - scientific methods are a wonderful means for finding out about the natural world (Peter Singer had some good words on this in a recent interview); but scientific method is neither omnicompetent nor all-sufficient nor infallible: there are vaste swathes of human experience which it is incompetent to judge - such as art. And it is equally incompetent to pronounce on God, because God is not an object in the universe - if He were, He would be no different in kind from any Ancient Near Eastern or Classical god; again, he would be a mere idol.

At most, such a god would be a sort of demiurge - but the Real God, the only God, would still be untraced & untraceable; nothing can be God, except for God alone, & we must accept no substitutes. Unless we forget about being Christians entirely - such a god would be perfectly adequate for a religion circumscribed by created nature, like the religions referred to; but God is not circumscribed by created nature, He is its Lord, not part of it; except because He is both its Lord and is gracious - so He can became part of His own creation by His grace, but only because He wholly exceeds it by Nature. Created nature is not transcendent, so it cannot be the source of grace - so if God is circumscribed by created nature, He cannot be its Lord, cannot be gracious, cannot be the God revealed in the Bible & in Christ.
Do you have a measure for ‘worth’?

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!

Christ is risen
ID is worthless because it is a hybrid mix of theology & science - both are spoiled when put together in that way. Milk & butter don’t go well together, merely by being put together - they can be put together, but not in that way. So with theology & science - they too can be related; but not in that way. A Christological analogy would be the difference between the Hypostatic Union, & “mixing” the two natures; the Tome of Leo rejects relation by mixing, & insists that both nature retain their characteristics & properties. So with science & theology - they too retain their characteristics & properties, otherwise one ends up with the two of them being related to one another in a way that spoils both. ID implies a wonky doctrine of God, & a wonky Christology - conversely, both of these provide patterns for thinking about things other than, & less than, themselves.

That’s where ID gets you 😦 It’s a will-o’-the-wisp - it looks serviceable, but it is theologically bankrupt, & destroys the very theism it is used to support.

Which is another way of saying that the universe is a particular sort of universe - it is specific, & it is intelligible; & this specificity & intelligibility are fundamental for human understanding both of it, & of its transcendent & unique Creator. So science is a knowledge, as is theology - but that does not make them identical, or imply that they can be studied by the same methods.

Hope that helps ##
 
Are you saying that God changed the properties of water molecules and light after the Flood so that rainbows became possible?
Although I asked you a question, I’m quite happy to answer you. You assume that there must have been at some point in time water in the atmosphere in sufficient quantities to form a rainbow - although you stated a ‘few molecules’ – which seems for you sufficient to form a ‘rainbow’, so you already have a different idea of the properties of water than what I do. However, God can indeed do whatever he wants with water.

If you’re a Catholic Christian you’re supposed to believe he weekly changes the property of bread and wine.
 
Of course I believe my parents existed before me. I was playing devil’s advocate with that remark.
The Devil need’s a better advocate because your choice of example was easily rebuffed.
 

I explained & illustrated that in my post​

It seems you wish to go no further with this.
That’s not the same as detecting - never mind recognising - God.
Detecting ‘non-natural’ things would still leave the door open to finding God’s handiwork.
If God could be detected by science - no matter of what kind - that would mean that God was no more than some wretched “god-of-the-gaps”;
That’s not true at all. God is for some small part ‘knowable’ in that I can know that there is a God. However this in no way negates the fact that, in his essence he is beyond my understanding. The mere ‘detection’ of God would not lessen God.
IOW, the godlet of ID. And such a godlet is not the God of Christian theism, or of the later Prophets. It’s no more than a titivated modern version of the very idols the Prophets exhausted themselves in denouncing, even though it is dressed up in science. But God it is not.
So when the Apostles saw miracles and ‘detected’ that Jesus is God, they didn’t?

Science can be by observation. John observes Jesus walking on water. He tries to do it himself and can not. That’s a simple science experiement.
ID is worthless because it is a hybrid mix of theology & science - both are spoiled when put together in that way.
Science dominated by the philosphy of science that is materialism is okay but science dominated by a philosphy of science that’s not materialistic is bad? 🤷 Well if you -]rant/-] say so!
Hope that helps
Aside from you just saying that science and religion are different (giving an insight into you) no it doesn’t.
 
Exactly. This is one of the biggest problems with “young-earth” creationism–it is so disrespectful of God’s character. In order to accept “young-earth” creationism, one would have to think of God as almost completely deceptive. One would also have to think of God as CONTINUING to be completely deceptive, since He would have already “stacked the deck” against scientific investigation of the earth. In other words, virtually everything science discovers about the age of the Earth is already “set up” to be false–because God decided to create the universe with a deceptive “appearance” of age.
That’s rather an odd theory. It just assumes that whatever evidence you’ve found for an old earth must be correct because it is because any other evidence would be wrong, because it is. And God doens’t give wrong evidence ! :rolleyes: It simply assumes one thing first and then says in effect “God wouldn’t be contradicting our findings of the evidence” because God wouldn’t do that! :confused:
 
Although I asked you a question, I’m quite happy to answer you. You assume that there must have been at some point in time water in the atmosphere in sufficient quantities to form a rainbow - although you stated a ‘few molecules’ – which seems for you sufficient to form a ‘rainbow’, so you already have a different idea of the properties of water than what I do. However, God can indeed do whatever he wants with water.
You did ask me a question, and I answered it by correcting my erroneous statement. I’m being flippant and I apologize for it.

I have heard theories that before the Flood it was simply not possible for a rainbow to be formed because of some drastic environmental change that the Flood ushered in. But rainbows occur at the bases of waterfalls and by ocean sounds. Is there evidence to support that waterfalls and ocean waves crashing against rocks are products of the Flood and not of God’s initial creative intent for the Earth? Or that they did exist but the environmental conditions were not allowed by God to produce rainbows?
If you’re a Catholic Christian you’re supposed to believe he weekly changes the property of bread and wine.
I believe more than that – God changes bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ dozens of times a day. But He doesn’t change all bread and wine, He changes the bread and wine presented to Him on the altar in the manner prescribed by Jesus himself. It is true that bread and wine were never changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus before that first institution of the Eucharist; are you suggesting my belief in that is analogous to a belief that God “instituted” the rainbow after the Flood?
 
You did ask me a question, and I answered it by correcting my erroneous statement. I’m being flippant and I apologize for it.

I have heard theories that before the Flood it was simply not possible for a rainbow to be formed because of some drastic environmental change that the Flood ushered in. But rainbows occur at the bases of waterfalls and by ocean sounds. Is there evidence to support that waterfalls and ocean waves crashing against rocks are products of the Flood and not of God’s initial creative intent for the Earth? Or that they did exist but the environmental conditions were not allowed by God to produce rainbows?
Certainly I could accept a ‘rainbow’ effect at the base of a water-fall - which is different from the ‘sign set in the sky’ which would be more dramatic.
I believe more than that – God changes bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ dozens of times a day. But He doesn’t change all bread and wine, He changes the bread and wine presented to Him on the altar in the manner prescribed by Jesus himself. It is true that bread and wine were never changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus before that first institution of the Eucharist; are you suggesting my belief in that is analogous to a belief that God “instituted” the rainbow after the Flood?
And the rainbow was a type of covenant. Perhaps this distinuighed it from the ‘rainbow’ effect at the base of waterfalls.
 
Certainly I could accept a ‘rainbow’ effect at the base of a water-fall - which is different from the ‘sign set in the sky’ which would be more dramatic. And the rainbow was a type of covenant. Perhaps this distinuighed it from the ‘rainbow’ effect at the base of waterfalls.
But the changing of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is not a naturally occuring phenomenon, it was ordained by God that very night in Jerusalem at the hands of Jesus. It wasn’t something God adopted; rainbows, on the other hand, could have been adopted by God as a sign of the covenant.

If rainbows could appear in the mist of waterfalls, why might they not have appeared in the sky after rain on a pre-Flood Earth? Or was the Flood the first rain?
 
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